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I am teaching a large undergraduate class this semester. One day a week (same day every week) we have a quiz. The syllabus doesn't specify at what moment of the class period the quiz will be given. It does say though that students who missed the quiz aren't allowed to make it up. So, I've had the following situation since the semester started. First and second week I gave the quiz at the end of the class. During week 3 I already had a few students coming more than 20 minutes late, but early enough not to miss the 15 min quiz, which I gave again at the end. So, this week (week 4) I gave the quiz 10 minutes after the start of the class. The actual time of the quiz wasn't announced in advance. And yes, I've had many students coming late and some came when the quiz was already over. These students couldn't have 15 minutes like others if any time at all. Now these students are claiming that I needed to tell them in advance at what time the quiz was supposed to be or emphasize that it can be at any time, or otherwise they follow the pattern.

All students who came in late were the ones who were late the previous week except one student.

I repeat that it's a big lecture hall, and I don't want to take notes when a specific student actually started his or her quiz and add 15 minutes to that time. Also, after quiz I want all of them to concentrate on the class material. And I don't want to give it at the end all the time as some students will come in late, and that disrupts the flow of a lecture, distracts other students and generally erodes class morale.

I drop quite a lot of lowest quiz grades at the end of the semester to meet those cases when students do have to be absent. So, a good student's grade won't be affected if he or she will miss a couple of quizzes.

I am currently facing lots of negative emails from students who were late and didn't get the grade they would get if they had the same time as everybody else. Do you think it's me being unreasonable? Their main argument is that it should be clearly stated when a quiz is given or emphasized that it can be given at any time, which I find unnecessary.

Vika
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17 Answers17

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Do you think it's me being unreasonable?

Sadly, yes. I see two problems here:

  1. You said in a comment that the policy of "the quiz can happen at any time" was not articulated at all. You gave the quiz near the end of the class a couple of times, and the students naturally assumed that that's when you'll always have it. Now you are trying to argue legalistically that since you didn't say when the quiz will occur, you were reserving the right to hold it at any time. However, in my opinion if you are going to argue based on legalisms, the burden is on you to dot all your i's and cross all your t's and make sure that you gave your students such amazingly clear information that they couldn't even imagine arguing with you.

    The thing to keep in mind here is that you are an educator, not a prosecutor trying to entrap a criminal in court. The students deserve to have clearly articulated rules so that they can focus their time and energy on the material; in particular, if there's a quiz, they deserve to know the precise time when it will be held, or at the very least to have an explicit announcement that the quiz can be held at variable times. Overall, your approach to dealing with the students who came late as I'm understanding it from your question seems to me to place you in an adversarial, combative position relative to your students, which is not where you want to be as a teacher - it can only serve to distract from your educational objectives and provides for a poor learning environment for your students.

  2. A second problem is that I'm getting a strong feeling from reading your question that you're trying to use the quiz as a crowd control mechanism, which feels wrong to me (and partially as a result has gotten you into the current messy situation). You've devised an elaborate strategy that consists of holding a quiz at a randomly selected time during the class as a solution to the problem of making students come to class, and come on time. The problem of students coming in late may be a very real concern, but random quizzes are simply an inappropriate and ineffective way to address it (and one that can potentially be perceived quite negatively by the students).

    A quiz is a form of assessment, and is a legitimate device to use for that purpose, but let's keep things in their right place: deal with the problem of disruptive late-coming students in the appropriate way, and have your assessment in the way that makes sense from an educational standpoint, whether it be quizzes, exams, homework, or even mandatory class attendance if that's important to you and your institution's policies allow it.

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Dan Romik
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    @DanRomik So, what about pop quizzes on the material being currently taught? They encourage students to be attentive during class. Is this also bad? Too controlling? I've had many great professors who taught me not only their subjects but also some values. Respect is one of them. It's inappropriate in my opinion to come to class late or leave it earlier on a regular basis without explaining the reason. It's inappropriate to use a cell phone when a lecturer delivers a lecture, etc. I understand there are differences in values, and different people employ different tools to promote theirs. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 02:48
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    @Vika: Quizzing about the material being currently taught may encourage students to be attentive during class, but it also punishes (unfairly IMHO) those students who internalize the knowledge only after the class, which is likely the majority, unless the pace is very slow. Besides, Dan didn't say the quizzes should be at the beginning, only that they should know when they would happen. As for respect, your students are adults, it is not your place to teach them manners. In any event, I think it would be better to lead by example, rather than antagonize them. – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 03:07
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    And frankly, I see no problem when my students use cell phones or come in late for class, as long as they aren't too noisy (in which case I would remind them they may leave -- if they are not high schoolers...). If they don't learn something because they were busy doing something else, it's their loss. If anything, if they do that a lot, it might be my fault for not capturing their interest or setting a wrong pace. Or maybe they are simply brilliant enough that they easily get what you need to carefully explain to others. Either way, it's not my business. – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 03:14
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    @Vika I have no opinion about pop quizzes, and didn't say or imply that there was anything wrong with them. I only said you should provide clear information to the students about how and when they will be graded, and I said you shouldn't use quizzes for crowd control, but otherwise they're fine. I also didn't say that the disruptive students who come in late are not a problem - on the contrary, I acknowledged that they may be, and there's plenty of room for a discussion on how to deal with this issue. My answer may not offer all the answers for you, but I hope it is at least a bit helpful. – Dan Romik Feb 26 '16 at 03:25
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    @tomasz Who should teach them some etiquette then? Parents? Many fail to do that. Or is it already too late and we should just give up? I am trying to explain them my perspective. Etiquette and good manners are fundamental to the sustainability of a civilized and law abiding society. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 03:53
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    @Vika Regardless of whether they need to be taught manners or not, that's not what they're paying you to teach them. As far as pop quizzes, I would not recommend that at all, but, if you feel the need, you need to inform your students that it's a possibility beforehand. This is the same need to set clear expectations as needing to tell them that the quiz may be at any point in the period. – DCShannon Feb 26 '16 at 04:42
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    I agree. Students are adults and professors aren't there to teach values. You could tell them about what's considered ethical and unethical in your field (like how it's not good to submit a paper to two journals at the same time) but not how they should live their life. Because while you may call them inattentive, uncouth and rude. They may call you rigid, inflexible and petty. Either way, it's not productive. Everyone has different values. Practice acceptance. Let them know the exact time, like 10:45. – Saikat Feb 26 '16 at 07:00
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    "or even mandatory class attendance if that's important to you and your institution's policies allow it" -- and if your institution's policies do not allow you to enforce mandatory class attendance by penalising grades, then the same institution won't allow you to achieve that forbidden effect using surprise examinations during classes. – Steve Jessop Feb 26 '16 at 10:13
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    @Vika Respect is always a two way street! If you want to teach them respect you should start by upholding these values on your own. Using tricks like random quizzes to penalize them like kids, doesn't treat them like peers. It is not something I would ever do in a professional environment to colleagues. All it teaches them is someone in a position with power above you can use it to enforce whatever rules they like by tricking you – Falco Feb 26 '16 at 11:36
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    I just want to voice my comment on pop quiz. Whether the quiz pops or not is not the concern, but rather if it is presented as a "low-risk assessment" (aka graded or not graded.) A quick low-risk quiz using paper or clicker technology (in-class polling) can serve to identify muddy points and let the lecturer to reinforce the weaker concepts. I would, as others have said, argue against graded pop-quizzes, they are threatening and can only help to instill extra anxiety. – Penguin_Knight Feb 26 '16 at 13:44
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    It's very common to have quizzes at the start of class, and collect 5 or 10 minutes later. Just put it in the syllabus, that quizzes are on random days but will be at the beginning of class, and no makeups. If you miss it, you miss it and get a zero. – SnakeDoc Feb 26 '16 at 15:49
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    @tomasz that policy may seem fair to you, but think about the students sitting around the person using their phone or coming in late and shuffling down the isle bumping into everyone. It's very rude, and distracting. If there's a student 2 or three rows ahead, and they're just playing games on their laptop or phone, it's going to keep pulling my attention away to look at the blinking lights. I presumably paid a lot of money to attend your class - I'd prefer the professor ask these folks to leave if they insist on not paying attention. – SnakeDoc Feb 26 '16 at 15:58
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    @SnakeDoc: maybe I was too specific: obviously, noise is not the only way they can be troublesome. Other kinds of distraction are also bad. That said, I have no issue with texting or reading or doing problems for a different class. When coming it late, it is common sense to find a place to sit where you would not need everyone to leave their seats to let you take yours. I am not saying it doesn't matter what they are doing during my class -- just that it doesn't matter as long as they are not disrupting it too much. – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 16:39
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    @tomasz that's probably a fair stance. I've had professors request anyone using a laptop sit in the very back row against the wall, so as-to not distract anyone behind them (and then explicitly forbid laptop use in any other row). (just note, I was not only discussing noise, often students will watch video without volume, and that's horribly distracting to even the more attentive students). – SnakeDoc Feb 26 '16 at 17:33
  • @user230452 Having quizzes set to a very specific time like you suggest isn't always good in my opinion. Students may have questions about the material so I would prefer to answer them before the quiz and it's not always possible to day how much time that will take. So, I prefer to have some flexibility. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 22:40
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    @user230452: a key part of the traditional liberal arts conception was that professors are indeed there to teach values such as professionalism, attendance, the value of hard work, etc. – Oswald Veblen Feb 26 '16 at 23:51
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    -1 I think educating students involves also teaching them discipline and organization along with the technical material. No one's prosecuting anyone here. – user541686 Feb 27 '16 at 06:36
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    @Mehrdad I respect your opinion and vote, but where in my answer did I express an opinion that educating students should not involve teaching those things? – Dan Romik Feb 27 '16 at 06:38
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    @DanRomik: You said "The thing to keep in mind here is that you are an educator, not a prosecutor trying to entrap a criminal in court."... what I'm saying is that what the instructor is doing is part of their education, and is not a criminal prosecution. They need to learn to dance to tunes they don't like, because that's part of life. – user541686 Feb 27 '16 at 06:40
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    @DanRomik: And it's a great illusion to think that students wouldn't even "imagine" arguing with you if you dot all your i's and cross all your t's. In fact I've noticed that instructors who dotted their i's and crossed their t's had to put up with a lot more BS from their students than those who assumed people had common sense, because the more they dotted their i's and crossed their t's, the more students used that as an excuse to claim anything not explicitly prohibited must be somehow okay. – user541686 Feb 27 '16 at 06:43
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    @Mehrdad thanks for the feedback. There will always be some amount of BS, but an instructor who is careful about providing clear and accurate information will stand on firmer moral ground when fighting against it. Anyway, it looks like the comments section has become rather overcrowded and may be deleted or transferred to chat by a moderator soon, so there isn't room to start a lengthy debate about these issues. However if you want to write your own answer is be happy to read your take on the OP's question. – Dan Romik Feb 27 '16 at 06:55
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    So, @Vika your argument here is that you're trying to teach them etiquette or professionalism, and the concern is for the students that are regularly late without reaching out to you to talk about why. You want to teach them how to handle the situation appropriately, but you are *not* doing that. You are punishing them for handling the situation inappropriately without teaching them the proper thing to do. You're giving them the punctuality test without doing any reaching out of your own to make sure they've understood the material. – nhgrif Feb 27 '16 at 13:51
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – eykanal Feb 28 '16 at 05:31
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    @Vika In our crowded undergrad classes (450 to 500 students), if everyone explained to the teacher why he has to come late or has to leave early, there would be no time for lectures left. But then, quizzes were to be held in tutoring groups of up to 35 students, and the exact time was to be announced a week in advance. – Alexander Feb 28 '16 at 08:29
  • I don't see why a quiz cannot be a learning assessment and a tool to encourage timely and consistent attendance. –  Mar 01 '16 at 15:31
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In my opinion, yes, you are being unreasonable.

I don't know the specific regulations of your institution, but I firmly believe that attending classes should not be mandatory, and students are entitled to do self-study or otherwise learn the material without your help. They may even be forced to do so by external factors (say, other classes taking place at the same time, or a day-time job). Either way, this is no business of the teacher.

In that spirit, I think it is just unfair to do the quiz without setting the time in advance, doubly so if you have not given them any sort of heads-up, and only decided to change a set schedule after a few weeks. Moreover, given the tone of your post, it seems like this change of schedule is intentional retaliation against the students for coming in late, and again, in my opinion, this is not the right way to prevent this sort of behaviour. Even if it is not the case, I would not be surprised if they felt that way.

I see how it can create a disturbance, especially in a big class. The simplest solution I can see is to do the quizzes at a set time (preferably at the very beginning or the very end of the class), and, if you are afraid of the disturbance, make a short (2-3 minutes would be enough) break before and after the quiz so that those students who only want to take the quiz can come and go without making too big a commotion.

This way, those who actually want to attend your class can do so without much of a hassle, while those who don't or can't will have a predictable schedule. As an added bonus, it makes for fewer students who would not be paying attention.

If late arrivals are still a concern even after that, you can try to simply explain, politely, how big a problem that is -- assuming that it is indeed such a big problem -- are a few people arriving late to take the back seats really a big deal? I am in no position to judge that, obviously, but if the only thing that suffers because of that is your pride, perhaps you should just swallow it.

If that fails as well, you may follow @DaveRose's suggestion and just keep the doors locked except during the test (after giving them a heads-up in advance). In my opinion, this is still excessive, but as long as it is completely clear to everyone involved, I guess it is an acceptable policy, if at all allowed/possible.

henning
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tomasz
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    As a side comment, in this year, I've been asked to teach high school students instead of undergrads. The absolute worst part of the experience is probably the fact that attendance is mandatory, and I can't kick out those who are not paying attention. – tomasz Feb 25 '16 at 21:12
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    I think at a lot of institutions locking the doors is not something instructors are physically allowed/capable of doing (in either direction). – Daniel R. Collins Feb 25 '16 at 23:37
  • @DanielR.Collins: Well, then I see no effective remedy other than simply asking politely, explaining how much of a problem it is (if it is indeed that much of a problem). In hindsight, maybe I should add this to my answer. – tomasz Feb 25 '16 at 23:41
  • @DanielR.Collins: By the way, in my institute, half the classrooms are locked and the lecturer has to unlock them, including all the large ones. This is because apparently, there were some incidents of theft of overhead projectors. – tomasz Feb 25 '16 at 23:51
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    IFC/IBC and OSHA compliance would dictate that fire route egress door may be locked from outside entry but must at all times allow for the exit of occupants with no special tools or knowledge. If your doors can't accomplish this they cannot be locked. Most institutions should have doors that are capable of this style of locking, however. IFC/IBC 1008.1.8 and OSHA 1910.36(d)(1) – CKM Feb 26 '16 at 00:33
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    Either way, this is no business of the teacher - If they just learn by self study, you are not their teacher. Self study is great, but providing structure to students who need it is well within the role of being a teacher. I think the importance of attendance depends a lot on the class and the student. – Kimball Feb 26 '16 at 03:34
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    @Kimball: The way I see it, the point of having classes is twofold: to teach the students, and to verify whether they have learned. Being taught is either a service or a privilege, but either way, anyone is free to give it up, and it doesn't mean that they don't have the skills to be tested. I imagine it might be an issue if someone does not pay attention during the class or doesn't attend without any good reason, and then comes to office hours for you to teach him - in this case, he is clearly wasting your time. Otherwise, it is really up to the student to decide the importance of attendance. – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 03:40
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    @tomasz There was no "set schedule". They are future mathematicians by the way. They have to realize that having something happening 3 times at a certain time doesn't mean that it will always be happening at that time unless it's written somewhere :). – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 03:57
  • @tomasz it's in the policy of my school that "The University is committed to a culture of academic engagement between students and faculty. Part of this commitment involves taking responsibility for attending classes and exams, and informing instructors when you cannot attend." Students have an option to learn the subject by themselves and take a "proficiency test" in order to get credit. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 03:59
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    @Vika: A mathematician ought to know that just because something is written somewhere doesn't mean it is necessarily true (for example, not every analytic set is Borel and not every limit of continuous functions is continuous). As I have said, I have had no knowledge of the policies of your school, and I am merely saying what (to me) is common sense. So in my opinion this policy is wrong, which is not to say that you can't enforce it - I'm not talking about legality. – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 04:13
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    In any event, I think the burden of informing in advance is much greater on the part of the instructor than on the part of the students. Rules like times of quizzes and the like should be made clear in advance, particularly in a very large class. – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 04:15
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    @Vika Again, students can have very legitimate reasons to miss class. I have a circadian rhythm disorder, and missed about half my lectures in college because I was asleep. I did what I had to do to make it to classes I needed to get to, but if the instructor doesn't give me the information to make that decision, how am I supposed to know that I need to get to this particular lecture at this particular time, even if I've only had 20 minutes of sleep in the past 24 hours? – DCShannon Feb 26 '16 at 04:48
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    Ever seen language course requirements? Attendance is (extremely) mandatory in those, to my experience. Which is very reasonable in my opinion: part of the course evaluation is on your ability to utilize the language in conversation, which is most easily done during allotted course time. Similarly, most any science course with a lab attached has an essentially mandatory attendance for the lab, which is again imminently sensible. – zibadawa timmy Feb 26 '16 at 05:20
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    @zibadawatimmy I work at a place that accommodates my condition, because any employer worth a damn is going to give a rat's patootie about their employees' medical conditions. If they didn't, I would have to take addictive prescription medicine. The vast majority of college classes don't require attendance, and if they do then of course the student needs to have a conversation with the professor after the professor relates this requirement. The asker is clearly not requiring attendance in their class, or I expect they would have mentioned it. – DCShannon Feb 26 '16 at 05:33
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    @zibadawatimmy: Sure, if attendance is required to be properly evaluated, then the students ought to come. What I am saying is that the parts which are not included in the evaluation process should not be required of a student. Attendance itself should have no bearing on the grade (unlike, say, active participation). – tomasz Feb 26 '16 at 15:24
  • @DCShannon I would tell your instructor about possible accommodations if you have health issues. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 22:29
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    @Vika Yes, but a student wouldn't do that if they have no reason to think that they need accommodations. Hence the need for clear expectations. – DCShannon Feb 26 '16 at 22:55
  • Missing appointments is only your fault, and the person you were to meet with is under no obligation to reschedule for you. A quiz during class is an appointment and they don't have to let you make it up. You should have made the appointment. This doesn't make class attendance mandatory, but it does encourage it. –  Mar 01 '16 at 15:37
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Either attendance in lectures is a required and graded component of the course or it isn't. If it is, then make sure everyone is aware of this, take attendance, and deduct grades from students who are late or absent. If it is not, then simply do not expect students to be present during your lectures. If there are lateness issues or if students coming late are disruptive then deal with this on its own merits. It should have no bearing on when you schedule formal evaluations.

Frankly, giving students grades in a course simply for being present at a lecture (or deducting them for being absent) sounds insane to me. It's easy to show up to a lecture and learn nothing. It's also easy to not show up to a lecture and learn everything.

This isn't elementary school - the primary purpose of a higher-education course is to provide to the student an objective, quantifed, and certified evaluation of their competence concerning the material in scope. Lectures are one of several services provided to assist students to that end, but they are just that - a means to an end.

If there are graded tests, quizzes, examinations, etc, you have a professional responsibility to let your students know in advance where and when they need to be to take that test. How else can you expect them to organize their time?!

In most higher education I've ever seen, attendance at lectures is strictly optional. Your lectures are there as a service to the students who feel that they help them learn the course material. Many students do not. Lectures consume a considerable amount of time and, quite often, are paced so slowly that for some they constitute an inefficient use of time. For those who can teach themselves the material covered in a lecture in much less time, forcing them to attend is nothing short of forcing them to waste their time.

Playing ridiculous games of bait and switch with randomly timed tests feels rather unprofessional. Your students are adults - treat them as such.

J...
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    Wish I could give this more upvotes. – Shane Feb 26 '16 at 18:35
  • Did you read my post? It looks like you didn't. Having graded quizzes is listed in the syllabus. Students also know that there are no make-ups if they missed them. It isn't stated that quizzes are at a specific time, just on which day of the week. If they are not there to write their quiz when everybody else is writing it, is that really my problem or theirs? – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 19:50
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    @Vika All I'm saying is that there will be students who will find more productive uses of their time than attending your lectures. If there are formal evaluations that they must be present for you should tell them where and when it will be in advance. If you insist on doing this randomly at some point during the lecture it should at least be clear so that students can arrange to be there. Assuming that students will be there, failing to set a clear schedule, and then changing the routine you establish without notice is just inconsiderate. You're making people guess and that is frustrating. – J... Feb 26 '16 at 20:40
  • Could you state which country your experience is in? I am aware of some academic cultures that might view lectures as completely optional - but certainly not all. – Oswald Veblen Feb 26 '16 at 21:19
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    @OswaldVeblen Canada, UK, primarily, but also incidentally in other places as well. I'm willing to accept that some cultures may be different, but all culture aside, it is not even logical that lecture attendance should have a bearing on grades. Managing to successfully sit in a chair for an appointed duration hardly seems like the stuff of merit... – J... Feb 26 '16 at 22:08
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    +1 for this. If you want the grade to be based on attendance, then just say in your syllabus that you grade on attendance. If you want to quiz the students, then tell them when the quizzes will be. If you insist on a pop-quiz, there's no reason that quiz needs to be at the beginning of the lecture. – Patrick M Feb 26 '16 at 23:33
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    @J... - many people would consider it logical that attendance would have a bearing on grades. I am personally mostly ambivalent about the benefit of counting attendance directly towards the grade. On the one hand, some research shows that students who attend more do better on average. On the other hand, it is not clear that attendance causes the higher grades, and some research suggests that mandatory attendance polices don't really raise the average grade. Still, I know many of my colleagues do require attendance. I think this is even more common in discussion-format courses. – Oswald Veblen Feb 26 '16 at 23:49
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    @OswaldVeblen Discussion format is clearly different, I'll grant. OP made reference to "a large lecture hall" - this is a rather typical sit-and-listen type of environment, I'm sure. And yes, for many students, attendance likely benefits their grades as the time is productively spent learning from the lecturer. That's not the point, nor can it be said to be universally true. The grade should reflect what they have learned, not the circumstances in which they learned it. If punctuality and schedule management are considered for the grade then the instructor needs to make clear what that means. – J... Feb 27 '16 at 00:23
  • @J... The when is "during the normally allotted course time" and the where is "in the normally reserved room". The advanced notice is "this was in the syllabus given to you at the beginning of the course". A teacher isn't required to give you a minute-by-minute breakdown of every result, example, or discussion topic for every lecture in advance. It is implicit (and these days, very explicitly stated, due to litigious cultures) that the exact time/day and order of things will vary depending on innumerable uncontrollable factors. Why this belief that quiz times are set in stone, then? – zibadawa timmy Feb 27 '16 at 03:37
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    "lectures consume a considerable amount of time and, quite often, are paced so painfully slowly" ... Props to you! I needed all the help i could get in Engineering undergrad. The lectures went way too fast for me, especially control :) –  Feb 27 '16 at 17:03
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    @stacey It's a perfectly valid and relevant point - surely for some the lecture format is not ideal for other reasons, namely because they pace too quickly for some peoples' learning style. Studying on your own or in a group where you pace things more slowly may actually be a better use of time and, I'm sure, there are students who also forego lectures to study more effectively in this way. The lecture format, at any rate, is not universally an ideal learning tool for a variety of reasons. – J... Feb 27 '16 at 17:13
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    In the US about 10-15% of my college courses required attendance in lectures. Invariably I found those courses to be led by poor professors. I imagine that in requiring attendance they were trying to paper over one symptom of their own inadequacy. Conversely, I can't remember ever being required to attend a lecture given by a professor I regarded as good. – Aurast Feb 29 '16 at 17:48
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    While I agree with the substance, I think the tone of this post is unduly harsh. The OPs question clearly shows that he cares about being fair to his students. – Jørgen Fogh Mar 01 '16 at 08:13
  • @JørgenFogh He established a pattern for his class and then deliberately broke that pattern to "catch" people he felt were coming only for the quiz at the end. That's a rather poor way for an educator to act, doubly so at this level. – J... Mar 01 '16 at 09:40
  • Perhaps so. However, he also just asked a question about how to be fair to his students. This shows a) he cares about doing the right thing and b) he is willing to change unreasonable practices. – Jørgen Fogh Mar 01 '16 at 10:23
  • @JørgenFogh That's fair. I've taken the edge off. – J... Mar 01 '16 at 13:11
  • I agree with the gist of this (+1) but the suggestion that higher education is primarily about receiving some evaluation (rather than training) sounds a bit cynical to me. – henning Oct 06 '21 at 11:46
  • @henning It is cynical. That doesn't make it wrong. ;) – J... Oct 06 '21 at 11:55
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My only concern about what you've done is how clearly the policy of "the quiz can happen at any time" was articulated. If you've not said that explicitly at some point, I would show a little bit of leeway—but not much. Students who are regularly tardy for class do impede the learning process for everyone, and therefore I don't have much sympathy for their claims.

What I would do in this case is let those students know that this bad grade will count against their allocation of dropped quizzes, but that in the future the quiz can occur at any point in class, and that there will be no prior announcement if the quiz will take place at the beginning or end of class.

aeismail
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    the policy of "the quiz can happen at any time" was not articulated at all. Coming from a different country I didn't feel like I have to explain this. – Vika Feb 25 '16 at 18:53
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    @Vika As a US graduate, what I've come to determine is that students will expect to know everything they should expect for the course from start to finish from the course syllabus. Surprises are frowned upon, and it results in a shock upon transition into graduate school. – CKM Feb 26 '16 at 00:47
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    Students coming late for class only impede the class if they're loud, which is independent of coming in late, or if the teacher interrupts class to complain about it, which happens far too often. – DCShannon Feb 26 '16 at 04:51
  • @CMosychuk The syllabus isn't set in graduate school ? I ask because I plan on going to U.S. For grad school. – Saikat Feb 26 '16 at 07:05
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    Students who are regularly tardy for class do impede the learning process for everyone — how? – gerrit Feb 26 '16 at 10:46
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    This answer literally makes no sense to me. How are people being late, or even missing classes impeding on everyone's learning process? Also, what is the point of these quizzes? Demonstrating your ability to harass students? – Davor Feb 26 '16 at 14:57
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    @user230452, if all you do is take classes in graduate school, then the syllabus is often set. Some times very advanced classes can be more ad-hoc. That said, if you plan on doing research and writing a thesis, there is no syllabus for research. – mikeazo Feb 26 '16 at 15:08
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    Students coming late to class interfere with the learning process for everyone only if either: (1) They disturb the class by coming late (could be that the entrance door is by the blackboard, that they're noisy, etc.) (2) If the class is much interactive (think collaborative sessions, like theatre, but even maths, if you use to give the students a bunch or exercises and then crawl around them, helping to whoever needs it; late students then eat your time); however, this is not the case for lectures. – yo' Feb 26 '16 at 18:40
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    @Davor Students who come late disrupt my learning by opening the door (which is not a silent process) and climbing over me to get to the empty seats in the back. Students who miss class disrupt my learning by asking questions that were adequately answered in the lecture(s) they missed. – Kathy Feb 26 '16 at 23:15
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    @Vika: unfortunately, in the U.S. at least, it is necessary to specify many things in the syllabus that "should" not need to be mentioned. It is also unfortunate that this is often the most useful defense against unreasonable students - to point out that the syllabus already addresses their complaint. In an ideal world, perhaps this would not be needed, but as things stand the path of least resistance is often a detailed syllabus. – Oswald Veblen Feb 26 '16 at 23:54
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Unless there's some institutional policy against it, then you're well within your rights and you're fine. The fact that some quizzes get dropped give you additional buffer in this regard.

In the future you can consider refining your syllabus by mentioning "quizzes can happen at any time during the class meeting". That would give you a third layer of authorization/documentation for that fact, if it's something that students are disputing.

Edit: Here's some supporting documentation on the issue.

In Washington State, this issue rose to the level of asking for input from the State Attorney General on the advisability and legality of attendance and related grading policies. The 1989 advice was somewhat restrictive on faculty (suggested not penalizing grades until attendance was below 80%). The 1992 and 1996 guidance was relatively more empowering to instructors, in permitting dropping students from a course for not attending in the first two days, and recognizing faculty authority to set attendance policies.

[1992] ... faculty members should be free to adopt the attendance policy as they choose. Some faculty members may feel that a mandatory attendance policy interferes with their academic freedom. By allowing them to accept or reject the school's policy, this concern should be obviated.

[1996]... it is not discriminatory to reduce student grades for noncompliance with a standard of attendance, "provided that students are given advance notice of the policy; that the instructor applies the policy evenly to all students; and the instructor is reasonable in his/her application of the policy by allowing excused absences for good cause."

Some research in 2013 found overall increased results from having daily quizzes in a large lecture class, and considered increased attendance to be a desirable side effect. Note that while grades went up, students still complained about the practice. (A point that Daniel Willingham has made in the past; students usually dislike the style of pedagogy that they learn the most from.)

Most students hated it at first, Dr. Pennebaker said. “Sam and I usually get really high course evaluations” from the students, he said; “these were the lowest ever.”...

By the end of the course, however, the class had outperformed a previous Psych 301 class of 935 students that used midterm exams — scoring 10 percent higher on a subset of 17 questions that appeared on both classes’ tests. The quizzed group also got slightly higher grades, the study found.

Minnesota State's review of research on the topic found that class attendance was the most valuable of all time that students spent interacting with course materials, and correlated well with final grades. Item #4 on their list of "Conclusions and Recommendations" for the university was:

Certain course practices can be used to encourage attendance. Testing extensively from material presented in class rather than material from the text can encourage better attendance. The use of in-class quizzes and other exercises will reward attendance.

Daniel R. Collins
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I grew up in what in the U.S. would be called a ghetto. Respect is a word and value that matters to you a lot there, and you go out of your way to retaliate to perceived slights. I had to dissuade a very intelligent and educated and caring friend with a similar background from filling the convertible of someone who had been hostile to him with sand, decades after leaving the ghetto. You are unlikely to go that far, but you used a quiz to teach those who didn't respect you a lesson.

It can be hard to lose that attitude, no matter where and how far you go in life; but it's very destructive for your own mental health. Some people are perennially late (certainly among mathematicians I know), but they don't "disrespect you." They're just late, that's all. Maybe it's cultural (despite the country's reputation to the contrary, people of my home country quite frequently are), maybe it's because they couldn't make it despite best efforts, or maybe it's just the way they are.

For your own success and happiness, try to work on learning to not relate other people's actions to you when they are not clearly targeting you (e.g., you don't have to put up with rude talkers). I suggest you mention in class that you appreciate reasonable punctuality, but if people don't follow suit, set a fixed time for quizzes, and shrug.

gnometorule
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If the quiz is to test the students' academic abilities rather than their alarm clocks, then you should hold it during the last 15mins.

Chu
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    Being able to arrive on time is an academic ability too... – Massimo Ortolano Feb 26 '16 at 09:06
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    @MassimoOrtolano A very rare academic ability indeed. – gerrit Feb 26 '16 at 10:48
  • @MassimoOrtolano - no, it literally has nothing to do with academia. – Davor Feb 28 '16 at 10:24
  • @Davor Many students deem this and other qualities unrelated to their academic abilities, and then they wonder why they can't get stellar recommendation letters, a position in a certain group etc. Guess why? – Massimo Ortolano Feb 28 '16 at 11:13
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    @MassimoOrtolano - because other things besides pure academic ability affect your employability? Do you consider not being a raging racist to be academic ability? Eating your food every day? Everything that can mess up your career? – Davor Feb 28 '16 at 15:43
  • @MassimoOrtolano Being able to arrive on time is an academic ability — [citation needed] – JeffE Feb 28 '16 at 17:38
  • @JeffE Probably you're not involved in team work like experiments, otherwise you wouldn't need citations... – Massimo Ortolano Feb 28 '16 at 17:49
  • @MassimoOrtolano Getting the assigned teamwork done well and on time is an academic ability. That does not imply that the good habits that support that ability—for example, showing up on time, showing up with a working pen, showing up sober, not harassing your teammates, sleeping the night before, wearing sufficiently warm clothes in the winter, eating well, getting enough exercise, and having a sense of humor—are themselves academic activities. – JeffE Feb 28 '16 at 17:53
  • @JeffE I'm not talking of "assigned teamwork". If you have, e.g., one week to run a certain set of experiments, because then the equipment should be send to another lab, then all the team members should arrive on time every morning, because showing up late would mean spoiling the work of an entire group. So, yes, for me showing up on time is an academic ability. – Massimo Ortolano Feb 28 '16 at 18:01
  • @Massimo Ortolano, an important aspect of group activity is dealing with unexpected / unplanned events, lack of engagement by individuals, etc. The assessment scheme should be robust enough to handle these cases. However, this discussion is on a bit of a tangent, as the OP's question referred to a quiz, not group work. In regard to the quiz, it did seem as if this became a punishment rather than an assessment. – Chu Feb 28 '16 at 23:23
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You are NOT being unreasonable. You never said the quiz would be at the end and I assume none of those students asked you if the quiz was going to always be at the end. You just need to clearly answer you never implied that the quiz was going to be at the end, that lowest scores will be dropped, and that if they have questions they should ask in advance, not complain later. Also, make sure they understand that they are responsible for doing well, and they cannot blame you for giving a quiz DURING class. Add that you do expect attendance, if that is important for you. Whether or not that is important for other teachers or the students it is irrelevant, YOU are giving that course and only you should decide what you want to expect from students.

user
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Time for a little story?

I was teaching in a foreign country for a class with 55 students. Around 20 of them felt being gangster and they came like 15 minutes late. So calmly next week I closed the damn doors. So "gangsters" came late, and start knocking on the door, and the on time students start laughing. I repeatedly did the same and the number of "gangsters" dropped to none around week 4 or 5.

Note: Doors were closed but not locked.

o-0
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    Umm. That's a fire hazard, dude. – David Hill Feb 25 '16 at 21:23
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    I took this story to mean that the doors had a press bar that opened the door from the inside, but was locked from the outside. It's a common design in the US. I don't see a fire hazard in this case. – neontapir Feb 25 '16 at 21:26
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    Closing the doors is not something that can be done everywhere, and actually I'm wondering in how many countries this would be allowed. For instance in my country room doors cannot be locked from the inside and anyway professors usually don't have the keys: rooms are opened in the morning by the janitors and closed at night. – Massimo Ortolano Feb 25 '16 at 21:28
  • In the USA, these doors as @neontapir said, are usually push-to-open from inside, and the permanent unlocking action is achieved by use of a standard Alan Wrench. So typically, given this type of door, the Prof needs no key, but only an Alan wrench to lock the door to late students, while leaving on-time students free to escape. – Dan Feb 25 '16 at 21:39
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    @neontapir this is off-topic, but "fire hazard" in a U.S. context can also mean a more general "emergency hazard", which these days would (sadly) include things like an active shooter incident. Locking the doors from inside, even with a metal bar allowing rapid egress, may be perceived as a very problematic thing to do from the point of view of such generalized emergency situations. – Dan Romik Feb 25 '16 at 22:32
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    I'd be asking you to pay back my massive tuition fees, and threatening with a lawsuit. – Davor Feb 26 '16 at 14:59
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    @Davor I would be completely supportive of your right to file a lawsuit, and I would look forward to our day in court. – JeffE Feb 28 '16 at 17:37
  • @JeffE - yep, that is exactly the entitled and arrogant attitude of some academics that gives everyone a bad name. – Davor Feb 29 '16 at 08:15
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I personally believe this drastically depends on what country you are based in and also what your Universities culture is like?

Coming from the U.K. and from my past experiences (though I graduated a few years ago now) The University set out a clear lecture structure timetable at the start of each semester and as students we were obliged to attend those lectures, and tutorials, at that specific time. This, as well as other University obligations were disclosed to us in a students handbook at the start of the year. Whether you hold the quiz at the start middle or end of the class does not matter and is entirely up to you, as long as you hold it within the planned time slot for that lecture I don't see how any student has the right to complain?

Perhaps in other countries, and quite possibly even other UK Universities, students obligations are not so stringent when it comes to attendance and punctuality and there could be many good reasons for this. Certainly in my University it was important and the way our lectures were structured, I fully understand this and completely agree. Do you have any (specific to your university) student handbooks or official guidelines which contain details of any obligations or suggestions around attendance and punctuality for students, that you could refer to to support you?

I understand that some have opinions around students flexibility, for those who undertake in part time work to support their studies for example, but I strongly believe that if a student is struggling to be on time for classes due to part time work then he or she needs to have a discussion with the lecturer and/or a student liaison to discuss the best course of action (if any is required).

ppw
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  • I am currently in the US. They have so called "syllabus". In the syllabus it's stated that every week, on a specific day the students have a quiz in class. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 22:37
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    I agree with this. Coming from the UK, to me it seems that the students are pushing boundaries for no good reason. They have been told that the class will contain a test, and it is their job to show up on time. However, I think this probably isn't an issue that is worth the battle. – Jessica B Feb 27 '16 at 13:34
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Since this is an undergrad class, take a few minutes the next session and explain why we show the "politeness of kings" by being on time for a class and committing to stay until the end. You are not a TV show. I sometimes will stop talking entirely when latecomers enter, and wait until they are settled. This so irritates those who were on time, they let the latecomers know that they are being disruptive. Peer pressure is much more effective!

Debora Weber-Wulff
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    As a recently graduated student, I disagree. Students showing up late is only minimally disruptive to their peers, while the professor stopping is extremely disruptive to the entire class, and in my opinion unprofessional. – Dan Feb 25 '16 at 21:36
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    Peer pressure is much more effective! Highly depends on the culture. Also from my point of view as a student extremely cowardly from the professor's side. What am I supposed to do to those who are being troublesome? Break their bones? Find where they live and toss a brick through their window? Unless there is an established legal method for peers to provide pressure, don't try to assume that it can be effective. – AndrejaKo Feb 25 '16 at 23:40
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    I can't imagine a course in the undergraduate or graduate level where I would be anything but annoyed at the professor for an action like you suggest. The only time I've seen peer pressure work with a late or repeatedly absent student is when group work is required (so the grade depends on the late person) - even than I've seen groups just do that person's portion of the work in order to pass (not saying that is right) – LinkBerest Feb 26 '16 at 01:55
  • The only peer pressure I ever use is if students talk so loudly that I would have to raise my voice, I lower it and get the others to shush them. I do not see that I have to lose my voice because someone wants to have a chat. But, other than that, I do not see any justification for peer pressure. – Captain Emacs Feb 26 '16 at 02:08
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    The main reason students coming in late disrupts class is because of professors who stop what they're doing when it happens. This is creating the problem, not solving it. – DCShannon Feb 26 '16 at 04:52
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    And the poor girl, coming back from a short toilet-break will probably hate you for the rest of her life, because you stopped the lecture to embarrass her in front of the class for the big disruption of leaving/entering the room to take a leak... – Falco Feb 26 '16 at 11:44
  • Falco, I assume that at college age students have control over their bladders. DCShannon, my stopping talking does not create the problem -- it's the latecomers. AndreajaKo, why not ask your peers why they come so late? You can also point out that it disturbs the entire class, you don't have to resort to violence. – Debora Weber-Wulff Feb 26 '16 at 23:08
  • @DeboraWeber-Wulff: I think what you do makes sense for habitual late-comers, but not for those who had legitimate reasons. Imagine (for example) a student having a medical appointment and having to be late to a lecture sometime. Or having a meeting with someone that you had no control over (e.g. organization president meets department) and which overflowed into lecture time. It's awful to get embarrassed like that, and I'd hate if you did that to me. But if I was habitually late and then you did that, I'd feel ashamed and make darn sure I never did that again. – user541686 Feb 27 '16 at 06:49
  • In my experience as an undergraduate student, someone entering the class late is a 5-second distraction. The professor stopping the class to point it out sticks out as a distraction for far longer in many students' minds. I think you're not giving students enough credit if you believe their attention is so easily broken. – user28375028 Feb 27 '16 at 22:54
  • @DeboraWeber-Wulff DCShannon, my stopping talking does not create the problem -- it's the latecomers. — Oh, come on. You are in a position of authority; the students are not. Your actions have significantly more impact than any student. In particular, your decision to interrupt class is far more distracting to the majority of students who are paying respectful attention than a student's decision to enter the room late. – JeffE Feb 28 '16 at 17:36
  • @JeffE, there is also the slight problem that constant opening and shutting of the door interrupts MY thought processes. I am not a movie that can be put on hold while you are out getting a beer. I plan an introduction to the topic, have a structure for the class and a planned ending. Both students coming late and leaving early disturb me - and others. – Debora Weber-Wulff Feb 28 '16 at 22:40
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If your institution has a good LMS like Canvas, consider offering the quiz online. You'll want to make sure it's (1) reasonably timed, (2) ensured to close within a reasonable time frame, and (3) the grade and answers to questions don't become available until the quiz closes.

So say 10-15 questions, 15min limit, ~48hr to complete. You'd basically let them know at the end of the relevant lecture that the quiz will be open after class until the start of the next lecture, or what have you.

If this isn't possible, you do need to clearly state your intentions regardless if it's reasonable or not because especially undergrad students, they take advantage of a lot of the leeway they get and fall into habits (sometimes it's bad habits, we get it). The effect of being ambiguous is they're going to reluctantly accept that failure and learn from it, or they're just going to give you a bad rating as an instructor.

CKM
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  • I think it's one of the system's weak points that instructors actually care about their rankings. Eventually this leads to the situation when students behave as the ones who set up rules, not instructors. Evaluations are useful to get feedback, but quite misleading as well. There are too many instructors in my school with perfect "5/5" due to being "nice, funny and easy" and some excellent educators with much worse rankings. I do care about my teaching. But as I am quite strict with my students, my evaluations usually fall into two categories: excellent (overwhelming majority) and really bad. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 04:12
  • The point of quizzes is that we have them in class. Take-home quizzes usually don't demonstrate what students really know. – Vika Feb 26 '16 at 04:14
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    I think that this is a hurdle your students are going to need to learn how to jump, then. No foul on you, it's poor habits on the student's part. There is an impact being late for any obligation. A good policy I've seen: Tell them that you will have a quiz on [day], and that late students will have until the first student completes and submits their quiz to show up, otherwise they will not be allowed to take it. – CKM Feb 26 '16 at 16:14
  • Eventually this leads to the situation when students behave as the ones who set up rules, not instructors. — Speaking as someone with both very specific and moderately unpopular rules and high teaching evaluations: [citation needed] – JeffE Feb 28 '16 at 17:40
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Some answers to this question have been amazingly different than others. Clearly this issue demonstrates a deep split in culture, with most answers seeming to support students being permitted to make their own decisions.

The opposing view is that students do not have a "right" to be late, and there is no reason to honor that. For instance, tomasz's comment, "Either way, this is no business of the teacher."

That stance seems to not take into account that different teachers have different requirements, and it very well may be the business of the teacher. At the college where I had my first job, the college made a commitment to train students a certain number of hours, and there were major financial repercussions if students were absent. The college imposed rules on teachers, so attendance absolutely was the teacher's business.

I was also trained to use quizzes to effectively motivate attendance. Always pop a quiz if attendance was low. It could be a simple quiz, like "is it sunny outside today?" (in a windowed classroom).

We were, interestingly, forbidden from grading based on attendance. However, our grading methods were required to consider things like attitude and professionalism, and we could certainly use quizzes.

Since this was impressed upon me by my department chair (who was involved in hiring me), and later on by the new president of the college, it certainly wasn't unreasonable for me, as an employee, to follow the instructions provided by my supervisors.

Regarding the question poster (Vika)'s comment about dropping the lowest quizzes, these quizzes could simply be in a different category.

Regarding the comment by "J...", "This isn't elementary school - the primary purpose of a higher-education course is to provide to the student an objective, quantifed, and certified evaluation of their competence concerning the material in scope." If that is your goal, then using quizzes to track attendance is wrong. However, if your goal is to train people, preparing them to be ready to be useful members of a productive workforce, then abusing quizzes in this way is a way to achieve those means. Some people will not appreciate the approach's harshness, but this type of method may be more effective at achieving the ultimate aim. So, the desired goal may be a worthy consideration, and the answer might be different among different educational institutions.

Letting people know what to expect is a great idea for multiple reasons. One is because some people may feel entitled to sufficient warning, and I think that some legal actions (court cases) may back up that attitude. Another reason is to do the decent humanitarian thing. In America where I'm at, many of the young people are genuinely so unfamiliar with the expectations of older professional culture that the ideas seem unreasonable, which I've determined from reading numerous public postings on websites. The humanitarian thing is to, at very minimum, make sure that you close the cultural gap in a way that is clearly fair, by making sure that expectations are clearly communicated. Let people know things in writing, so that if anyone does come late, then they can see the note on the syllabus even if they miss in-class comments.

Once you let them know, then it's fair game (which is my concise answer, in case that wasn't clear among the other commentary). The instructor (and certainly not the students) should have control over how the class sessions operate. They (the students) might not like you (the teacher) doing things like scoring based on attendance. Heck, for that matter, even you (the teacher) might not like doing such things. However, in the interests of achieving the ultimate goal, demonstrating successful application of authority may be worth the discomfort of the students, and even yourself. Sometimes a good person simply has to do what's right, even when it isn't very pleasant (for them, or for you).

TOOGAM
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Part of the inherent agreement of a class is that the student attends during the time of the class and fulfills all learning obligations determined by the instructor. In return the student receives the benefit and gain of knowledge as specified by the class. The students who do not attend the entire class abrogate this contract and therefore have no claim when they are not present for the quiz. This is reflected also in real life and should also be viewed as one of the added instructions a student receives that adds up to far more than the classroom instruction. Simply tell your students that you will give half the quiz at the beginning of the period and half at the end!! This should absolve you from any misunderstanding or claims of unfairness. For those of you who may have misunderstood the penultimate paragraph I mean that if a quiz is 10 questions, 5 are to be posed at the beginning of class and 5 at the end!

Thor
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Thor
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    One concern of this: "half the quiz at the beginning of the period and half at the end!!" -- that sounds neat. Until I think about it enough to realize that's really not any different than giving two quizzes in one day. You could just say you're giving two quizzes every day. Once students figure this out, they may despise the unnecessary confusion of the word games even more than the quizzes. – TOOGAM Feb 27 '16 at 16:25
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I drop quite a lot of lowest quiz grades at the end of the semester to meet those cases when students do have to be absent. So, a good student's grade won't be affected if he or she will miss a couple of quizzes.

I assume they don't know that yet.

Concede that you were wrong not to tell them in advance about the time.

Then tell them that because of this, at the end of the course, you will allow everyone to drop that grade (or if they elect to keep that particular grade, that you'll allow them to drop a different quiz grade of their choosing).

Stephan Branczyk
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    Why make it complicated? Just tell them you'll drop the lowest x grades and don't let their choices enter into it at all. Any reasonable person would pick the lowest grades anyway. – Kurt Feb 27 '16 at 21:47
  • @StephanBranczyk They know the policy about dropping lowest grades. It's on the syllabus. – Vika Feb 27 '16 at 22:52
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    They know the policy about dropping lowest grades. It's on the syllabus. — Alas, the first sentence does not follow from the second. – JeffE Feb 28 '16 at 17:41
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I'd like to have you see yourself through the eyes of the student. The student may or may not know all about your classes and about all the things you're teaching. So I can imagine why they would want to stay away from your classes as it doesn't seem to be introducing anything new to them. However at the same time they still need to "prove" that they possess the skills and competences needed to complete the course. And that's where the tests, essays, papers, and other stuff come into play.

Now that see the great outline we can look a bit deeper into what a student would do in class if they are forced to attend. They will get in class, listen to whatever you're explaining and then get bored as they already know the material (This obviously doesn't go for everyone). There was a good picture I read saw before that pictured this in an entertaining way. Here : http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/content/potential

What a school should want to do is assess the student based on their skills and competences. This is also where things get a bit complicated, depending on the school you will want to have the student be very independent. If the school wants to encourage students being independent, you'd want to give them the option to just show up for the tests and then get out. If they fail, then they themselves are to blame for it as they have had ample opportunity to get help if needed.

However, in order to do this, they need to know when the tests are. Is it the responsibility of the teacher to tell the students when these tests are "exactly"? No. The student is responsible for their classes and made the unjust assumption that the tests would be at the end of the classes. The kicker here being that they made an "assumption". The first thing you should learn is to NEVER take assumptions if you can help it. These students should have "ASKED" you when those tests would be held. I believe they had not done this. As a teacher you can expect a student to attend your whole class unless the student indicates otherwise.

If a student wants to not attend classes and just take tests. I don't see much of a problem. However it should still be the student's responsibility to ASK.

If a student wants to take responsibility of their own time allocation, then they should take FULL responsibility for it. Not half-ass this and then point fingers towards the teacher when they themselves don't plan their time correctly.

Also, this is coming from a student, Not a teacher. And as a student I feel you're being taken advantage of if these students can get away with something like this.

Migz
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Students who are late should be allowed to start late, and take the quiz at a disadvantage. (The quiz ends at a certain time but no one says that you have to start on time.)

Students who are absent should be excused if they have a reasonable excuse, such as illness or death in the family. They should fail if they have no reasonable excuse for being absent.

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Tom Au
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    Why should this be allowed? The word "should" causes the statement to have an ethical slant. I had a college president describe how he implemented college-wide policy (at another location) to have all doors be locked at class start time. Students who were late would get an absence. This quickly led to fewer instances of students entering late, which distracts other people (who may be taking a quiz). I'm not saying whether this example was the best approach, but am showing an actual other perspective that was done. Why should students have a right to cause such distraction? – TOOGAM Feb 27 '16 at 16:32