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I currently have 6 years of teaching experience and a PhD (in mathematics if that helps). I am left wondering where to go next. I would like to try out industry and the private sector (they pay better), but I don't want to lose the ability to come back to academia in the future. Obviously, to stay in academia requires publishing and research on my part and maintained interest in a particular field (maintained contacts and joint papers).

So, assuming I am capable of doing research on my own time, should I do a postdoc and then a private sector job or just get a private sector type job?

In other words, several years down the road, what looks better for an academic position:

A = (6 years teaching) + (PhD) + (a dozen or so publications) + (2 year postdoc) + (2-6 years industry)

B = (6 years teaching) + (PhD) + (a dozen or so publications) + (4-8 years industry)

This is important in the sense that PostDocs (oddly in my opinion) require "fresh" PhDs. Many specifically require the PhD within the last 3-5 years. So it seems imperative to get one while you can. Right?

On the other hand, I have also heard the argument that people get PostDocs because "they are not quite ready to be on their own yet". Or PostDocs are used to gain more contacts and learn what it is to be a "professor". As such, any high paying, senior type position would look better than a PostDoc. Even an internship would look better than a PostDoc. Right?

Bobby Ocean
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    I just want to say that "assuming I am capable of doing research on my own time" seems like a huge assumption. Many of the usual high-paying industry jobs for mathematicians (tech, finance, etc) tend to involve working well over 40 hours per week. So, answers you receive may turn out to be vacuous :-) – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 03:40
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    @NateEldredge Maybe, but no academic position is going to take a chance on "possible new talent", not in today's market. In researching various academic positions, I find that most academics have had an enormous number of other positions, grants, experience, and research, before they finally landed the academic job they have. In other words, in today's market, it seems doing research while completing other tasks (teaching, conferences, private sector, travel, etc.) is the norm. Long past are the days when new PhDs would get hired and have their career set for the next 40 years. – Bobby Ocean Feb 17 '15 at 04:01
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    Yes, you're absolutely right that it's more and more rare for new PhDs to go directly to good tenure-track jobs. But the jobs they get in between (postdocs, etc) usually have academic research as part of their assigned duties, and allow them sufficient time to publish good papers at a high rate. They may teach, but often at a fairly low load (2-3 courses per year) - nowhere near 40 hours per week, and with summers free for research. – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 04:08
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    I would say it's misleading to lump together "teaching, conferences, private sector, travel". Conferences and travel, for an academic or postdoc, are usually part of research and (hopefully) increase your research productivity. Teaching will reduce your research productivity but usually is less than half your time. Private sector jobs will reduce your research productivity and are often full time or more. – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 04:11
  • I really would disagree. If you obtain a prized postdoc, but those are just as difficult and rare as landing a good academic position. Many postdoc's require your attention full-time. I have seen some require a teaching load of 2-3 classes per semester as well. In addition, level of teaching is important, teaching a graduate class would take up far less time than teaching undergraduate material. Many schools offer postdoc's as a means of temporary hire, the researching part is your job. – Bobby Ocean Feb 17 '15 at 04:17
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    A postdoc is definitely a full time job, but much of that time is research that leads to publications! You don't have to do it on your own time. I guess I should also say that there are many kinds of tenure-track jobs. But I would say that of people who go on to research-intensive tenure-track jobs (i.e. R1) in mathematics, the (vast) majority will have done postdocs with light teaching loads in which research was the focus. As the contrapositive, people who take industry jobs, heavy-teaching postdocs, or other teaching positions, are unlikely to go on to get R1 tenure-track jobs. – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 04:23
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    Also, "Teaching a graduate class would take up far less time than teaching undergraduate material": Having taught both, I would disagree that this is generally true. – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 04:26
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    (Sorry for so many comments.) I should also clarify my previous statement about teaching taking less than half your time - this was mean to refer to someone in a light-teaching postdoc, the kind that is more likely to lead to an R1 tenure-track position. Certainly there are plenty of jobs in which teaching takes well over half one's time. – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 04:29
  • While I am delighted to have responses to my inquiry, I feel our conversation is going off on a tangent. Specifically, for the last 6 years I have taught 62 classes while obtaining a Masters and PhD (and I am only 27), I believe I am more than capable of performing 60+hour work weeks with ease. Moreover, coming from a "sink or swim" graduate program has already taught me the necessary tools to work on my own, gain contacts on my own, and research on my own. Hence, the PostDoc doesn't feel necessary, but will future academics agree? Hope my question makes more sense now. – Bobby Ocean Feb 17 '15 at 04:34
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    I guess I would summarize my opinion by saying: a postdoc isn't inherently necessary for a research-intensive tenure-track job. What is necessary is a strong research record, and a postdoc is likely to help with that. However, an industry job is likely to hinder it. By the way, could you clarify what kind of academic job interests you? (E.g. teaching university, R1, selective liberal arts, community college, ???) I think that will help you get appropriate answers. – Nate Eldredge Feb 17 '15 at 04:40
  • Well, I already landed a community college tenure-track job. So, I feel I could get that almost anywhere and I should be looking higher. So, I guess the objective is to not "settle". A tier one (R1) school would be the dream (but isn't that most PhD's dream). However, having tasted decent income, a PostDoc is very unappealing. Also, I am not afraid of working hard on my own. So, industry sounds better. I guess? – Bobby Ocean Feb 17 '15 at 04:45
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    If right now a postdoc income is unappealing to you, then you probably will never end up back in academia. Sure, starting TT position incomes are somewhat higher than postdoc ones, but after 8 years in private industry your baseline would also have moved up. – Willie Wong Feb 17 '15 at 14:00

1 Answers1

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So, assuming I am capable of doing research on my own time, should I do a postdoc and then a private sector job or just get a private sector type job?

The big danger for your future academic job prospects is that it's extremely difficult to maintain an impressive research track record in industry (assuming you don't have an industrial research job in which one of your main duties is publishing academic papers). It's not impossible, but many people try and few succeed. The easiest path back to academia is finding a job that aligns closely with your industrial work, for example teaching mathematical finance if you have worked on Wall Street, but even this path is far from guaranteed to work out. Successfully maintaining a research program unrelated to your industrial job and thereby landing a job at a research university years later is exceptionally rare, so you should recognize that there's a real risk that you won't be able to get such a job.

Eight years after your Ph.D., I doubt anyone really cares whether you did a postdoc first or went straight to industry, so the credential itself is unlikely to be important. On the other hand, the experience and connections could be invaluable in developing and maintaining your research program. The reason postdoctoral positions are so important is that almost all new Ph.D.s can benefit from more research experience and mentoring. The chances that you have truly reached your full potential in graduate school are slim, and you'll be competing against people who have the benefit of postdoctoral experience. There's no reason you have to do a postdoc, but not doing one may put you at a serious disadvantage.

On the other hand, I have also heard the argument that people get PostDocs because "they are not quite ready to be on their own yet". Or PostDocs are used to gain more contacts and learn what it is to be a "professor".

This is not completely wrong, but it makes a postdoctoral position sound too much like remedial education. Instead, even the most brilliant and successful mathematics students typically do postdocs, which help prepare them for even greater success.

As such, any high paying, senior type position would look better than a PostDoc. Even an internship would look better than a PostDoc. Right?

For a typical mathematics hiring committee, no industrial position will be considered relevant at all unless it's directly connected to the candidate's research or teaching. Anything else will basically fall into a black hole entitled "time spent away from mathematics". Being an executive might look slightly more impressive than being an intern, but neither one will help you get a faculty job.

Overall, I think the most important factor you need to consider is how much you care about keeping your academic options open. If this is a secondary consideration, and industrial jobs look more attractive to you, then going straight to industry could be your best bet. If you really want to be a professor someday and would be crushed if it didn't work out, and if the industrial jobs you have in mind aren't particularly relevant to your academic plans, then you should think hard about whether spending six to eight years in industry is the right approach.

Anonymous Mathematician
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