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I am a PhD student about to graduate from a university in Western Europe, and recently I have received two postdoctoral job offers - one in Beijing and another in Los Angeles, and I find it hard to choose between them. Thing is, there are faculty I can easily collaborate with in both institutions - therefore, since the teaching load in Beijing is lower (and the pay is higher) I tend to prefer choosing it over Los Angeles.

However, my supervisor (and also several of my colleagues) told me that as far as my academic carreer is concerened, it's better for me to choose Los Angeles. The reason (according to him) is that no one will take me seriously after a postdoc in China, and whatever collaborations I will do there would likely be ignored - it sounds to me pretty extreme (and unreasonable), and I was wondering whether it is true or it is just some bias I should ignore. I do plan on attempting an academic carreer and applying for a permanent position after this job, and more specifically, I would prefer a permanent job in Western Europe (due to family considerations). Is it true that a postdoc position in China would ruin my chances of landing a permanent position in Europe or North America? It sounds pretty extreme and unreasonable to me, but I don't know what to think.

If it matters, my field is Applied Mathematics. Thanks in advance for every reply...

Buffy
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Nuada
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  • Where do you want to end up? What travel budget will you have to get out and make contacts ? – Jon Custer Mar 15 '24 at 14:43
  • @JonCuster, Eventually I would like to find a permanent position at some research oriented institution, preferably in W. Europe (mostly due to personal reasons - however, E. Europe, North America and other western countries are also fine with me). I know I will have a relatively high travel budget in Beijing, so attending conferences shouldn't be that big a problem (most of the conferences in my field are in Europe anyway). – Nuada Mar 15 '24 at 16:40
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    Ok. The point is to prioritize keeping current connections and making new ones in places you might want to end up. In person meetings at conferences and workshops are the gold standard. – Jon Custer Mar 15 '24 at 16:44
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    The other question is how good your Chinese is… – Jon Custer Mar 15 '24 at 16:49
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    I would trust your advisor and colleagues' judgement a little bit more than suggested so far on this site. One person may be biased, extreme or unreasonable, but if numerous colleagues give a similar answer it is less likely that everyone is being biased and extreme. These colleagues likely know how faculty hiring works in their respective countries. It would be difficult for users here to assess the bias or unreasonableness of the advice without being from the same specific subfield and knowing exactly which institutions/labs are considered. – ojfew owmx Mar 15 '24 at 21:27
  • @ojfewowmx The tricky bit is how old the judgement of the professors is. It was probably sound advice 30 years ago but especially regarding China I'm not sure whether it still is today. – quarague Mar 18 '24 at 08:40
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    "Thing is, there are faculty I can easily collaborate with in both institutions" Sure, but the real question is whether you will be able to build relationships with people in your target countries (Western Europe and the US) during your postdoc. Your advisor's statement sounds a bit extreme, but it will almost surely be much easier to build a professional network which will help you in your search for a tenure track position in Western Europe or the US from the US, as opposed to trying to build it from China. – Adam Přenosil Mar 18 '24 at 12:35
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    I would strongly encourage anyone seeking to move countries to also carefully consider the political climate of the target host country as well as the relations between the target host country and the one you are coming from. It is also important to consider if you are compatible with the culture and laws of the target host country/city. – David S Mar 19 '24 at 17:44

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For better or worse, networks and networking are important in academia. The opportunities that you get - collaborations, invitations to give talks, 'encouragement' to apply for jobs, etc - depend strongly on people knowing that you exist, and forming a favourable opinion of you. Who you know matters, and who those people know mattes.

Both postdocs offer opportunities to grow and strengthen your network. However, the direction of growth will be very different. If you go to China, you will probably build a strong set of contacts in China (and perhaps in Asia more widely). If you go to the USA, you will develop good links in North America. Neither of these is inherently 'better' or 'worse' than the other - but one may be more helpful than the other in helping you achieve your long-term goals (whatever those may be).

For example, if your long-term goal is to end up back in your home country, you may wish to consider whether the academic community there is more closely-connected to the USA or to China. Your advisor's opinion (or prejudice) here may be shared by others, even if it lacks a sound basis.

avid
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Yes, it sounds pretty extreme. There is no reason to think that research, especially in math, should be of any lesser quality in China than that in the US.

However, the world political situation is, at the moment, unsettled and doesn't seem to be improving. I'd think that US is the safer (though "politically correct") option here.

I'd also think, and hope that your future chances depend more on what you can accomplish in a postdoc than the venue. But the world ain't perfect. Long way from.

Also consider language and such for a long stay anywhere.

Buffy
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I hate to write this answer, but I think you should go to Los Angeles.

Things like this happen to people who (look like they are) associated with China. It's silly and biased and racist, but some people will see "China" and automatically think all sorts of negative things, including of you as a person. You might think less of them as a result, but they might still hold power over you (c.f. the person in the link above). This also happens in academic settings.

If you have reason to think the postdoc in China is more desirable, that's a reason to fight the bias and go anyway, but since they're about equal you might as well take the US postdoc.

Allure
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    I'm sorry, but isn't this essentialy saying some people have racist views against Chinese and therefore OP should cater to these views and avoid being associated with Chinese? – quarague Mar 18 '24 at 12:46
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    @quarague: No, it's saying that OP should do what is likely to benefit their long term goals and that OP is not in a position and cannot be expected to cure other people's racism. – Jochen Glueck Mar 18 '24 at 13:46
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    @quarague do you know of a way to change the racist views of all people? If not, do you know of a better option? – Allure Mar 19 '24 at 03:14
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    I think the evidence for racism you linked relative to the question at hand is sketchy at best and what you are suggesting is reinforcing the racism. I think it suffices to not act as if everyone else where a racist but rather assume the best in people. It will work out in most cases, help make the world they you want it to be and in the rare cases where you actually encounter racism you can still decide whether you want to fight against it or not. Overall much better than just assuming everyone is a racist and therefore acting in a racist way yourself. – quarague Mar 19 '24 at 08:17
  • I don't necessarily agree with your advice to choose the LA position over the Beijing one, but the point you make is valid. It may not be "politically correct", but it's the truth, to some extent. For better or worse, the political atmosphere in the West is strongly anti-China these days, and academia is not immune to this. – Aqualone Mar 19 '24 at 16:04
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I think the recommendation from your supervisor comes from the belief that the quality of the research happening in China is inferior to that happening in the US or in Europe.

You wrote that at both institutions there is faculty for you to collaborate with. Is this based purely on things you looked up once you had the offer or do you know some of these faculty from conferences or read their papers during your research so far?

If you already know them and their research I would interpret this as meaning that your supervisors recommendation is outdated. If on the other hand you only learned about the research after searching for it and haven't encountered it beforehand I would trust your supervisor a lot more.

quarague
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  • the quality of the research happening in China is inferior to that happening in the US or in Europe This isn't stated in the question, however. – Allure Mar 18 '24 at 12:29
  • @Allure I'm explicitly not claiming this is true, I wrote that I think that is what the supervisor believes and then wrote an answer how OP can decide whether that belief is relevant or not – quarague Mar 18 '24 at 12:39