-3

What makes a university prestigious?

Is it that they are harder and more rigorous? My intuition would tell me that the more prestigious a university is, the harder should be the curriculum and the fewer people should be able to graduate from it since the curriculum is so hard. I expected, for example, that Harvard should have a very low graduation rate since it is so prestigious and thus should be hard to study at. As far as I know, that does not seem to be the case in the US and a high graduation is supposed to be a good thing. Is that so? If so how do universities manage to maintain both quality and quantity of graduates?

All in all, I have always assumed that a big part of what makes a university prestigious is how hard it is to study there. Is that so in the US?

Buffy
  • 363,966
  • 84
  • 956
  • 1,406
Iam Cleaver
  • 1,161
  • 1
  • 6
  • 12
  • 5
    That's an awfully lot of questions for one post. – Buffy Dec 12 '22 at 20:07
  • 8
    Someone once noted that Harvard is such a vast storehouse of knowledge because the first year students bring so much with them and the graduates take so little away. – Buffy Dec 12 '22 at 20:09
  • @Buffy Just removed one. – Iam Cleaver Dec 12 '22 at 20:17
  • 1
    Some of these questions can be answered by a simple internet search. – Terry Loring Dec 12 '22 at 20:26
  • Recall that Harvard accepts roughly one in twenty applicants. If they let you in, it is because they think you can make it there, even if the classes are rigorous. – Jon Custer Dec 12 '22 at 20:55
  • Removed two more. – cag51 Dec 12 '22 at 22:12
  • 1
    Also: closely related; perhaps the same question from a different angle: Why are high pass rates for courses considered acceptable in the US?. – cag51 Dec 12 '22 at 22:13
  • What makes Cambridge and Oxford prestigious? – Jon Custer Dec 12 '22 at 22:15
  • 3
    You've posted a lot of questions comparing the US to Russia, in Russia are universities considered prestigious only when a lot of their students fail out? – Azor Ahai -him- Dec 12 '22 at 23:06
  • @AzorAhai-him- Not necessarily. Usually it is on the acceptance side; top ones either require high GRE or can even demand additional exams (given Russian implementation of GRE is heavily criticized). One of the strongest programs I know about weeds out some 50% of students by year 3, another is at below 10%. – Lodinn Dec 13 '22 at 00:34
  • @AzorAhai-him- Unfortunately, yes. Thus is not universal, and more modern universities are trying to improve their graduation rate but some older conservative universities still stick to the Soviet model of mercilessly failing anybody they can. The notion is that the fewer people succeed the more intelligent are the ones who do. This is currently only true for a couple "top" universities, but until recently, I assumed that a high failure rate is simply a feature of "elite" institutions. I was positively surprised that top US universities manage to make do without it. – Iam Cleaver Dec 13 '22 at 08:20
  • @AzorAhai-him- Some people assume that if a university doesn't weed out enough students then the quality of its graduates is inconsistent. The universities were notoriously bad at selecting students so the expectation was that many would (and thus many should) fail a difficult course. The new standardized examination system has mostly solved the former problem, but habits and expectations still live on. – Iam Cleaver Dec 13 '22 at 08:39
  • @IamCleaver: Let me emphasize a cultural difference, which is that Americans tend to have the attitude that, given competent instruction, anyone (or at least most people) can learn anything (or at least most things). That's why courts try criminals by jury and churches elect their ministers. On occasion, public universities have gotten in trouble over low graduation rates because parents complain to state legislators that the very mean professors are not letting their very smart (only in the eyes of their mother) kids pass their classes. – Alexander Woo Dec 13 '22 at 17:11
  • @AlexanderWoo So is a high graduation rate expected from top universities? – Iam Cleaver Dec 13 '22 at 18:19
  • @IamCleaver: High graduation rates are expected from all universities. Low graduation rates are considered a sign of incompetent teaching. Less prestigious universities that do not get to choose their students might not be able to maintain a high graduation rate without compromises they feel uncomfortable with. – Alexander Woo Dec 13 '22 at 19:15
  • @IamCleaver: Let me give you another indicator of cultural difference. US laws protecting people with disabilities require that anyone with disabilities (for example an IQ of 50) must be provided with an individualized program of schooling that they are capable of completing and awarded a high school diploma if they complete this program. These diplomas must be indistinguishable in public record from any other high school diploma. – Alexander Woo Dec 13 '22 at 19:22
  • @AlexanderWoo But if low intelligence student ends up (accidentally) admitted to a top university, what would actually happen? Would they attend the university indefinitely? End up kicked out eventually? Will they be awarded the degree despite their inadequacy? You don't seem to have a rigorous entrance examination system so I am positive that such situations are bound to happen periodically. – Iam Cleaver Dec 13 '22 at 20:01
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – Alexander Woo Dec 13 '22 at 20:14

2 Answers2

4

One mistake that you seem to be making, perhaps in your other questions here also, is an assumption that there is a single linear scale, or that all such linear scales are aligned. That isn't the case. The space is multidimensional. It isn't even completely well defined except that there are a finite number of universities at any given moment.

Basically, though, a university gains (or "tends to" gain) prestige when it does a good job on many of the varied parts of its defined mission, which is usually more than just undergraduate education. This good job needs to be recognized and usually recognized over a long period of time.

A place like Harvard is nearly four hundred years old and has been recognized in both teaching and research. It has many "Schools" with different missions. Law, Engineering, Math, the Humanities... It has a great library.

Almost every US state has one or more high prestige state funded universities. Some have several. They do a good job throughout their mission over long periods and it gets generally recognized.

A few other high prestige places, like Olin are much younger (50 years) with a limited mission, but they do a good job and it eventually gets recognized. It is the recognition of a job done well that brings the prestige, not the fact that it is hard or expensive.

With the prestige comes the ability to be selective in both students and faculty, making entry harder. If only good students and good faculty are present, then it is clearer that the place does a good job and prestige increases. The match between students and universities isn't random. Scandals, on the other hand can result in a setback.

But, for the students accepted at a "hard" prestigious university, the difficulty is about the same as at a more modest place with, perhaps, less accomplished students. So, you are unlikely to see any discrepancy in graduation rates. What you will see, perhaps, is a discrepancy of the ratio of graduates going to grad school or not, or the ratio of students going into academia vs industry.

The process of prestige building can be slow. My undergraduate institution has always done a good job but its prestige has increased greatly over the more than 50 years since I attended. It has been consistently good at its mission, which doesn't include doctoral study. Some places do a good job but its recognition is only local, so prestige may be less than otherwise. Lots of moving parts.

Building prestige (good students, faculty, research, ...) usually takes a lot of money, so the ability to attract it is a factor. Get a lot of NSF grants and prestige may go up.

Some very small colleges with a limited mission make the grade (Wellesley) because they send graduates to good grad schools and have a highly qualified faculty.

Having widely recognized faculty with a wide public presence is a big plus (Cornell, Carl Sagan).

Lots of dimensions.

Buffy
  • 363,966
  • 84
  • 956
  • 1,406
  • I have heard that a large number of international students is considered a good thing. My intuition and experience tell me that a large number of people who barely speak the language and aren't integrated into the culture is anything but good. – Iam Cleaver Dec 13 '22 at 09:02
4

As a rough guideline, for undergraduate education, prestige is basically selectivity. A university is more prestigious if it is harder to be admitted when someone applies to go to that university.

This does correlate to some version of quality of education for two reasons. One is that more people apply to go to universities that do a better job. (Actually, it's not clear; maybe it's just that more people apply to universities that are more prestigious, making this a self-reinforcing cycle.) As a result, those universities can choose which applicants to admit. A second reason is that, when a university has better students, it can run classes that teach material more quickly and at a higher level, because it does not need to cater to weaker students.

Of course, it's entirely possible that people want to go to Harvard because being admitted to Harvard is a signal that you're capable no matter what education you get afterwards, and it's hard to prove to a third party that you were admitted to Harvard if you don't go there.

(Only 4.6% of applicants to Harvard for 2022 were admitted.)

Alexander Woo
  • 24,741
  • 3
  • 59
  • 91