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I got offered a technical position at a German research institute according to TV-L 13, stage 3. I understand this is an entry level for PhD students and I completed my PhD 4 years ago. I also have 8 years of industry experience, and altogether a TV-L 15 seems more appropriate for me. If I accept this TV-L 13 position, will it be possible to get promoted later to a TV-L 15 directly or will I have to go through the different stages one by one? I need to know if it is possible to skip levels, or if there is regulation against it.

zbinkz
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    The group (Entgeltgruppe) depends on your tasks and responsibilities, not so much on years of experience I believe. E.g., will you be directing other people or not. TV-L 13 is not only for PhD students, but also postdocs and other roles, although the stage at which you would start is different. – Pieter Naaijkens Jul 14 '22 at 14:50
  • @PieterNaaijkens The role I was offered includes system administration of the lab compute servers. I'm also expected to guide some postdocs with software I am specialized in. Do you think these qualify as direction work under the TV-L? – zbinkz Jul 14 '22 at 15:25
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    Entry level for PhD students would be TV-L 13, stage 1, unless they have previous relevant work experiences. – lighthouse keeper Jul 15 '22 at 07:17
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    @zbinkz "System Administration" is a task that is ranked lower in the TV-L scheme than Pre-PhD research, so that duty can't be used to argue for a higher group. Providing guidance in a specific aspect that you are expert in is also nothing special, so TV-L 13 sounds right for what you are planning to do. Note that pre-PhD research should count as experience for the "Stufe" in TV-L 13 if you were employed for doing so (scholarships are....problematic here). So you may actually be better off with TV-L 13 financially. – DCTLib Jul 15 '22 at 08:06
  • A useful resource I just came across that I'd like to share https://www.academics.com/guide/salary-researchers-germany – zbinkz Jul 15 '22 at 14:13

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TL;DR: You can make your experience count to improve your salary, but for the level (“Stufe”) not the group (“Gruppe”).

The German TV-L system (and its siblings TV-E, TV-A, etc.) has two axes:

  • The group axis (“Gruppe”) covers qualification, duties, etc.:

    • TV-L 13 is the default for postdocs, staff scientists, etc.
    • Every once in a while, such a position is advertised as being TV-L 14 if certain conditions are met.
    • Positions that begin only at TV-L 14 are extremely rare – I have seen two in several years of subscribing to job ads relevant to my field.
    • TV-L 15 positions are leadership positions with personnel responsibility etc. A “technical position” almost certainly cannot be argued to be in this category. The head of a university’s computing centre with many subordinates would probably be TV-L 15.

    Usually, the group is not negotiable when beginning a new job, because the institute simply only has funding for a TV-L 13 – if they could pay TV-L 14, they would probably advertise this to be more attractive to good candidates. Depending on the institution, position, etc., there can be a procedure to move from TV-L 13 up to TV-L 15, depending on achievements, extra qualifications (e.g.. habilitation), but you need to be a few years on the job to make use of this. You might also negotiate a higher group as a counter-offer if you got another job offer.

  • The level axis (“Stufe”) covers experience and also affects your salary. It automatically progresses in certain prescribed intervals (after 1, 3, 6, 10, and 15 years of service).

    Here you can have your entry level raised by accounting for experience relevant to the new position. What counts as relevant can be subject to debate and negotiation, but it usually is experience at a level comparable to the position in question. Thus your time after PhD likely counts, unless you spent it in a job where you did not make use of your academic education. On the other hand, any work experience obtained before a master’s degree (or similar) probably does not count.

Progress along the different axes is independent, except for the fact that you may go down one level when raising in group (since you have less experience in that group), but you never get a lower salary due to this. So, you can make your experience count, but on the second axis (“Stufe”). Note moving up one group and level has roughly the same effect on salary, e.g., the salaries for TL-L 15, level 3 and TL-L 14, level 4 are exactly the same.

Wrzlprmft
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  • That's a great explanation. Do you think working at TV-L 13 could be an obstacle to being considered for jobs at higher TV-L categories like 14 or 15? Is there regulation that would prevent that? – zbinkz Jul 14 '22 at 16:40
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    @zbinkz: No, it’s normal that you acquire qualification and take on additional responsibility during your career. The rather broad coverage of TV-L 13 is the exception. The vast majority of people at TV-L 14 or higher got there from TV-L 13. – Wrzlprmft Jul 14 '22 at 17:10
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    @zbinkz, there are very, very few jobs at TV-L 14 or TV-L 15. – Debora Weber-Wulff Jul 14 '22 at 18:59
  • @Wrzlprmft suppose you are at TV-L 13 level 3, do you know if you can skip levels to promote to 14 or 14? Would you have to go through levels 4, 5, 6, etc. or is it possible to just skip directly to TV-L 14 or 15. – zbinkz Jul 15 '22 at 01:45
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    @zbinkz: Progress along the axes is mostly independent (also see my edit) – otherwise they would be just one axis (also, you could not go beyond TV-L 3 in a lifetime). – Wrzlprmft Jul 15 '22 at 06:29
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    The "your level usually gets reduced when raising in a group" bit may be negotiable as well. After all, years of TV-L 13 experience should still be relevant for performance in TV-L 14, and going from TV-L 13-6 to TV-L 14-1 would actually be a large salary reduction and not likely to happen. Going from TV-L 13-3 to TV-L 14-3 is possible, but probably only if you actually change jobs/responsibilities. – gerrit Jul 15 '22 at 07:48
  • As a side-node (related to what @gerrit wrote), TV-L 15 is (also) used as group for those tho acquired funding for their own "Emmy Noether Research Group" with the German Research Foundation (DFG). There were cases where these group leaders were still hired as TV-L 14, however, as they had experience that counts for TVL-14 but for not 15, so their "Stufe" on group 15 would have been so much worse so that their salary on TVL-14 was actually higher. So, yes, by being promoted to a higher group, your salary can get worse. – DCTLib Jul 15 '22 at 08:04
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    @gerrit: The TVL says that you never get a salary reduction from a Höhergruppierung, you get the level that is just above what you currently get, plus a Garantiebetrag if the new salary is less than 180/100€. See https://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/allg/hoehergruppierung.html . – til_b Jul 15 '22 at 08:07
  • Shouldn't it be "after 1, 3, 6, ... years", or "in year 2, 4, 7 ... "? The duration (Laufzeit) of Stufe X is X years. – user151413 Aug 13 '22 at 17:43
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    @til_b True, but if you ask to be put in a higher level right from the beginning (coming from outside public service), it can potentially happen that you end up with a lower salary. – user151413 Aug 13 '22 at 17:44