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I was looking at faculty jobs, and most of the jobs in UK publish the salary range and band, which (from my understanding) is essentially non-negotiable and adopted by most universities in the UK. It ends up being roughly 65k USD for an assistant professor / lecturer entry level position, even for top-tier universities in places like London, compared to places like NYC or Boston where beginner faculty salaries are easily upwards of 100k to start.

From reading a bit about this, and from looking at other posts on Academia.SE, people often say you can't compare these, or that the UK has other perks. But what exactly are these? The tax rate in the UK is 40% of what you make over 50k GBP (20% below), so even if you do get a good incremental raise, you lose almost half of it; and on top of this you pay 12% of your paycheck for National Insurance. UK universities do tend to have good pension matching (20%), but that's common in a lot of US universities too. They offer good leave (5 weeks) but many US jobs are only 9 mo contract, and still pay in the 80-100k range. So you can either take 12 weeks off per year, or, if needed, you work another up to three more months and have a higher salary supported by grants (which isn't possible in the UK scheme).

So... What am I missing? Are there hidden benefits? And otherwise how do good universities like Oxford, Imperial, UCL actually recruit good faculty?

I get that places vary a lot and some people can't move or they like one place more than another. But I'm not asking a hypothetical... I'm interested in specific reasons why you or someone you know has preferred the UK over a similarly ranked, better paying faculty job elsewhere in the world. I get that there are a lot of what ifs, like maybe the US uni has worse healthcare or childcare. But in my experience with R1 universities in the US, these perks are really really good, even for postdocs. The best answer so far is the non-tenure system in the UK, which does seem better.

For even more clarification, I'm asking this as someone that has never been to the UK, so I have no idea if I would like it more than the US. I don't care about less money – that's the whole point of my question. I'm happy to take less if there are other perks. But what I'm asking is what exactly are these perks? And ideally from the perspective of someone that has worked in academia in the UK vs elsewhere.

V2Blast
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  • Various pros/cons of living in various places have been moved to chat. The conversation may continue in chat; however, comments below this one should attempt to clarify the question or suggest improvements only (sadly, we cannot move comments to chat more than once) – cag51 Feb 09 '22 at 20:44
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    This question (and reinforced by your comment on an answer; "what I really am asking is what is there to like about the UK?") seems like it has nothing to do with academia since what you are really asking is whether the UK is better than the USA in general. This question could be asked in almost identical terms about a job in just about any industry. – JBentley Feb 11 '22 at 13:12
  • Dear OP, after 1.5 years maybe can you finally self-answer this question? – EarlGrey Oct 30 '23 at 06:36

11 Answers11

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I'll answer from the perspective of someone who has worked in both the UK and the US and also in Industry as well as academia during my lengthy career.

Although all the other answers and comment raise valid points, many of which I concur with, they do not completely resonate with me, as someone who has done both.

One of the perspectives I noticed while travelling backwards and forward across the Atlantic over the years which may have influenced the question is the expectation that life elsewhere would be "just like here"; but it isn't. When I was in Houston, for example, I acted like an Englishman and walked from place to place and caught the Bus, much to the horror of my hosts who were surprised that I came out alive without speaking Spanish. I was horrified they were horrified! Similarly colleagues from LA tried to rent a car from Heathrow to drive to their hotel in Mayfair which I considered madness. They thought I was rather common sharing transport with other people. (Not academic examples but they exaggerate the point).

Although I am a native speaker of English and was aware of the cultural and linguistic differences I found that working in UK academia at a "lower salary" much more cost effective than when working in the US at a much "higher salary". For example, although food cost more in the UK, housing cost less. Health care cost less, emergency provision cost less, child care and education cost less, daily travel cost less. I also found that the pressure on working hours was less and the time available for vacations and my family was much better. The pension scheme was (when I entered it, but not now) miles better and so on.

I have friends and colleagues who left the UK and remain in the US, both in Industry and Academia. It suits them. I miss much about the US, but there is much to like about many places and cultures where I have been. Every single one has value. I guess I long for Un monde sans frontières.

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    "I miss much about the US"... "...Houston...". So, that would be good Mexican food, right? And either good craft beer or Mexican beer??? – Buffy Feb 08 '22 at 14:56
  • "housing cost less" Did the pound really fall that far? I am not sure I believe you. – Anonymous Physicist Feb 08 '22 at 19:35
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    A quick google suggests housing is only slightly cheaper in the UK. I'm not sure that applies to locations with universities. – Anonymous Physicist Feb 08 '22 at 19:36
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    London housing is cheaper than Boston, let alone NYC or SF. – Noah Snyder Feb 08 '22 at 20:53
  • Thanks for the comments --- but what I really am asking is what is there to like about the UK? I want a sales pitch. I've never spent much time there, and I'm more than willing to consider a job there, but at first glance there's no real benefit. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 08:59
  • @AnonymousPhysicist Yeah, I'm specifically talking about London, which maybe I should have been clearer about in my post. This has one of the highest costs of living in the world. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:14
  • @NoahSnyder That's not true at all. London cost of living is about 15% higher than Boston, with housing being about 5% higher in London. Just google "boston london cost of living" for a bunch of facts on this. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:16
  • That’s exactly what I did, but I think I looked at rent (Boston more expensive) and you looked at buying (London more expensive). So it’s more ambiguous than I thought. – Noah Snyder Feb 09 '22 at 14:03
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    If you want a sales pitch, go talk to a sales person. Nobody here has any reason to convince you either way, of why you should go anywhere particular; if you want to know why other people would, well, that's the answer you've got, here. @user3037237 – Nij Feb 10 '22 at 08:17
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    If you need a sales pitch, then you probably shouldn't come here, you won't like it. If you were the kind of person who enjoys the kind of lifestyle you can enjoy in England, you would know. – Michael Kay Feb 10 '22 at 12:20
  • @Nij Sure, but basically no one here has really given much of a solid reply about their preference either. To the extent they have (health care, crime, etc.) this is not seeminly anchored from experience, i.e., it's people that have never lived in the US and presume it's worse or better. I'm still waiting for someone that lived in the US and lived in the UK to tell me the pros/cons of taking a faculty job in a big city like London, and how that compares to a similar job in a big city in the US. No one has done that yet, and you haven't contributed either. – user3037237 Feb 10 '22 at 12:20
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    The problem about comparing "cost of living" is that it tends to compare the costs of an identical lifestyle in two countries, and if you're going to enjoy living in a different country, then you have to adapt to a different lifestyle. – Michael Kay Feb 10 '22 at 12:24
  • @MichaelKay totally agreed, and that's sort of what I'm asking. What make the quality of life good (or different) in a place like London, specifically with respect to a faculty job? I currently live in another country in Europe, so I'm quite aware of cultural differences. But that being said, quality of life can certainty be compared across cities to some degree. That is, if one only considers costs of necessities such as housing, food, transportation etc., then certainly the cost of living can be compared. – user3037237 Feb 10 '22 at 15:05
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    Then you're conducting a poll, and that's just not what SE is for. People have already described what perks (beginning, or continuing) a career in the UK provides, compared with the USA, and why the focus here is the wrong one. The question has been answered; changing it because you don't like the answers is not how SE works, either. – Nij Feb 10 '22 at 18:32
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    @user3037237 Advice - this is a decision you should make. Not us. What we can do is give insight into both worlds, but you have to make the choice. Take this decision. Face it. Don't let want strangers on the Internet decide instead of you, even if it gives the illusion of lifting the weight of responsibility off of your shoulders - it does not. Write your own life. – Neinstein Feb 11 '22 at 08:18
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    Personally, I wouldn't live in London if you paid me. Or in any other large city. But life 50 miles away can be very pleasant. It all depends on what you're looking for. – Michael Kay Feb 11 '22 at 16:45
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I see with some of your comments to some of the offered answers that you consider the social benefits (healthcare and other forms of job security, life security), the community and safety (gun violence, walkability of cities), work benefits (annual leave and how it is perceived) as "not real benefits" or as "reasons that the UK sucks a bit less".

I can understand that as somebody coming from a country where these things are not standard and nor, you assign value to these things as "added bonus". However, as somebody who comes from this system, these are absolutely dealbreaking for me.

For example:

  • I am absolutely horrified by the idea that I would have to keep a certain amount of money (I heard as much as $10k from friends and acquaintances) aside just in case I needed to call an ambulance.

    Honestly compared to other European countries where I've lived prior, the social protections, worker protections and health care in the UK are not even the best I've ever experienced. Giving even more up would feel like a step backwards to me.

  • You put the US 9-month contracts (where you could make extra money by working for the remaining 3 months) in the same context with the UK 5 weeks of annual leave "during which you can not make extra money".

    The very approach to this is fundamentally different. The (government-backed) attitude here is that any worker needs time off work in a year (and I mean more than just weekends). This is fully paid annual leave. The UK academics have a more generous leave allowance than some UK jobs, but there is actually a minimum prescribed number of leave days that you are obliged to take annually (28). Taking time off here is expected; nobody will interpret it as being unmotivated to work.

    (Check "What does it mean to have vacation time in European academia?" for an old but excellent question on the vacation topic specifically)

  • The whole gun thing in the US. The idea that you can get one without going through a rigorous certification process. Shivers down my spine.

  • Car-oriented cities vs human-oriented cities.

    I am already disappointed by how car-oriented some UK places are and how hard it is to get around on foot, by bicycle or using public transport. But I am still generally succeeding in having a high standard of living without driving at all.

  • The reliance of the Higher Education system on tuition fees.

    (Decided to edit this one in after a discussion in the comments).

    Obviously, when considering an academic faculty position, the considerations about tuition fees are different from an undergrad. I actually think there are two aspect to this one.

    The first academic position is one of the earliest points of stability in an academic career that allows one to plan for a family. I am of a firm opinion that education should be free. I would never start a family in the US, knowing that I'll either have to save up substantially for my children's education, or settle them with a crippling debt before they ever join the workforce. And while the UK is definitely not Europe (the Universities are still tuition-reliant, and the tuitions are high), it's certainly not the US either; residents of Scotland do not pay tuition, and the UK student debt is treated much differently to the US one (for one, most of the students are never required to repay the majority of it).

    But even beyond hypothetical future children, there is a personal motivation for doing research. One of the reasons I chose academia over industry was the potential for my work to be more widely accessible rather than behind a paywall. The idea that the students should pay to access my knowledge goes fundamentally against why I'm doing research.

You might not consider any of these as a tangible benefit, and I can respect that. But basically, I would never consider a job in the US, academic or otherwise precisely for these reasons. With my current perception of the society in the US, I think living there would necessarily induce sacrifices to my standard of living which I am simply not prepared to make.

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    It's a late answer, but it captures the more emotive aspects, as compared to the predominately financial aspects noted in https://academia.stackexchange.com/a/182132/70455 Personally, I suspect these have more influence over our decisions. – Clumsy cat Feb 09 '22 at 16:31
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    There was a time when an answer offered a day after the question was asked was not considered a "late answer" on academia.se. I do want to say however, that I do not consider these "emotive aspects" -- these are very tangible benefits for me. I don't consider social security/workers rights/community and city organisation to be an emotional issue for me. I understand that somebody with little experience with these things might not be able to assign a value to them (at all, or at least differently to me) -- in fact, they influence how I make financial decisions in the long run. – penelope Feb 09 '22 at 16:51
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    emotive doesn't mean "not tangible", not does it mean "secondary importance". You may not have an emotional response to social security, or event the matters of physical security (gun culture) that your answer touches on, but I think many people do, myself included. – Clumsy cat Feb 09 '22 at 17:06
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    This captures very well the reasons why I never considered applying for a permanent position in the US. I've heard similar sentiments from many others. The transportation part btw also ties into financial aspects: It's very viable to not own a car in many/most? places in the UK. Also, the US has about 4x the UK per-capita rate of fatal traffic accidents. – Arno Feb 10 '22 at 10:26
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    If the question was about any other EU country, I would also mention free Uni for any kids I may one day have (or not) -- but I think the UK is becoming the US of Europe with the ridiculous tuition fees. – penelope Feb 10 '22 at 10:31
  • @penelope That's also the norm for nearly all universities in the US. – user3037237 Feb 10 '22 at 12:24
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    @user3037237 Hence the term "US of Europe". But to be fair -- as bad and horrifying as the UK tuitions seem to me, UK student loans are statistically more likely than not to be waived before the (now ex-)students are anywhere close to fully repaying them, and they're not taken into account when considering current debt for e.g. a mortgage. So again, quite a different level. But the idea that I (or my eventual offspring) would start an adult life, after completing a degree, any poorer than penniless (i.e. with a crippling debt) is just unfathomable to me. – penelope Feb 10 '22 at 13:37
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    UK universities have fees, but you don't have to pay them. You get a "student loan" but it's not like any other loan you will ever find - you only have to pay back a percentage of your income over a threshold. If that's not enough to cover the loan after a certain period, the remainder is cancelled. IMHO you shouldn't think of it as a loan, you are selling the government a bond and they are taking a stake in your future. – rjmunro Feb 10 '22 at 14:22
  • I'm not an expert, but you have to remember how big the US is, the gun control thing can depend on exactly where you are. In some areas, gun control is strict. – Tom Feb 10 '22 at 15:21
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    @penelope I'm talking about faculty jobs, not tuition or undergraduate degrees. – user3037237 Feb 10 '22 at 16:21
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    I think this is a good answer because it perfectly captures why EU countries are not experiencing insane brain drain towards the US. I completely disagree with every single bulletpoint but I do agree that a lot of people have the same mindset, so +1. – JonathanReez Feb 11 '22 at 00:00
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    Worth noting that it's not quite true that the UK doesn't have free university, university is free for residents of Scotland. – Noah Snyder Feb 11 '22 at 00:27
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    I wouldn't (also @Clumsycat) call a next-day answer a late answer. For my own questions unless an answer is definitive (e.g. from a LaTeX package author about their package recently) I would allow a minimum of 24 hours before considering which answer to accept, as a way of giving a wide range of people time to answer. Some topics might need longer, or attract activity for longer. The bar is higher once there are already answers, whatever the timescale, but this answer adds new material and easily passes that test – Chris H Feb 11 '22 at 12:00
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    @user3037237 Having a faculty (permanent, academic) position is the first time in my life that I even allowed myself to think about having a family -- the life of a postdoc is too unstable. So naturally, when considering where to 'settle down' in a faculty jobs, the ease of raising children is one of the factors. Further, the relationship between faculty and students is different based on how accessible the said education is. And finally finally, if I don't support the US tuition-reliant Uni model, but I accept a job at such a Uni, I am indirectly supporting a system I am against. – penelope Feb 11 '22 at 13:20
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My answer builds on excellent comments of Massimo Ortolano and Buffy.

You question stems from the assumption that high salary is what makes an occupation most attractive. Although it might be true for some, people who choose academic careers typically are aware that academia is not paying very well. You will see a much more attractive paycheck if you work in IT, banking, finance, management and administration, distribution of illegal goods. However, there are obvious downsides in doing a career in distribution of illegal goods; and similarly some people see downsides in other well-compensated employments. Paycheck is important; but other factors are also important, and academics are not mostly motivated by a paycheck.

Obviously, there is a huge difference in academic salaries in the UK and US. If you include EU, China and Asia, Russia and post-Soviet countries in comparison, the difference is even more striking. For many academics the scale of US salaries and research budgets is a sufficient motivation for the move - if you look at the faculty lists of many US Universities you will find a lot of surnames associated with China, Russia, European countries, etc. But obviously, not every non-US academic is motivated enough to move to the US. Why?

Well, we already answered it: not everyone is motivated to move. Moving countries is a big challenge!

  1. When families move, often both partners have to leave their jobs, and only one partner has a job offer at the moment of the move. Another partner may or may not have work permit in the country, and may or may not have good chances to get a well-payed job, depending on their background, skills, language proficiency, etc. Even when salary of one partner improves, family as a whole is forced to leave on a tighter budget at least for some time.
  2. US immigration system is not the easiest to manage. EU citizens do not experience immigration issues while working in EU (UK leaving the EU recently has caused many UK academics to move to EU and US).
  3. US does not always look like to be the country that particularly welcomes refugees and economic migrants - and work migrants can feel that they will not be particularly welcome as well. People working in their own country do not experience systematic bias based on how they look and speak.
  4. US healthcare bills look exorbitant; healthcare in many EU countries, including UK, is free for patients.
  5. Childcare, education and University tuition fees vary from country to country. While children of faculty are typically considered home students (vs international), they may not be eligible for loans to finance their education, making it less affordable.
  6. The cost of life, including cost of accommodation, is very high in some places in the US, making it not affordable for academics and even higher-payed IT specialists, etc.

Arguments above apply to more or less any professional employment. There are also a few specific differences between academic employment in the US and UK/EU.

  1. Tenure in the US is competitive and takes ~5 years. Tenure in the UK (a permanent lecturer post) is awarded after a probation period, which is between 1-3 years in most UK Universities. The probation process is non-competitive and typically >90% of lecturers in the UK pass their probation without issues.
  2. Work-life balance differs from place to place; some US departments are notorious for their exploitative work practices towards non-tenured academics and PhD researchers.
  3. The academic culture, teaching practices and student expectations vary from one place to another; some academics find US students not adequately prepared for their classes and expecting/demanding too much from their professors.
Servaes
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – cag51 Feb 09 '22 at 20:46
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    US healthcare bills look exorbitant => they're really not if you have good health insurance. This is a very common myth that's unfortunately hard to dispel. If you work for a good institution/company you'll have good insurance. And as a European you don't care about things like getting cancer - worst case you just pack your bags and fly home. Europeans living in the US get to eat their cake and have it too in this regard :) – JonathanReez Feb 10 '22 at 23:54
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    @JonathanReez There are multiple accounts of PhD students and Assist Profs working at US Universities who discovered they are not covered by the health insurance. – Dmitry Savostyanov Feb 10 '22 at 23:59
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    @DmitrySavostyanov not all US Universities are equal, yes. You should make sure you get a good healthcare plan before signing the offer. – JonathanReez Feb 11 '22 at 00:02
  • and only one partner has a job offer at the moment of the move --> this is called the two-body-problem. – fgysin Feb 11 '22 at 07:43
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    @JonathanReez It's not a myth, it's a simple fact. Health insurance does not make bills lower, it just means your insurance is paying for them. US healthcare bills are not only high, they are also unpredictable. On top of that, US health insurance is notoriously difficult to navigate. For every person who got excellent care with reasonable out of pocket costs, you will find someone who thought they had good coverage and still got a large bill. That stress is much lower in European countries. – Relaxed Feb 11 '22 at 08:52
  • @fgysin I am tring to avoid using academic jargon for the sake of clarity to people who may not be aware of its precise meaning. But thank you for this important contribution. – Dmitry Savostyanov Feb 11 '22 at 11:36
  • There's not really such a thing as tenure if you're a lecturer in the UK. You have a permanent contract, sure, but that just means getting made redundant comes as a surprise rather than at a known date :-) . Since I started my first degree in '93 to finally leaving university employment for industry last month I studies/worked at universities where there was constant abolishing / closing-down of departments and accompanying removal of lecturers as subjects went in/out of fashion and student numbers dropped. – mgraham Feb 11 '22 at 15:55
  • @Relaxed I have extensive experience with the medical system in the US, my company work email has constant threads about insurance/hospitals, and insurance is one of my favorite topics of conversation within the tech community here. Worst story I've heard involved having to pay $3.5k out of pocket for childbirth and having to make 10 separate payments for it. All the bad stories that people hear on the other side of the pond are about companies/institutions without a good healthcare plan. American healthcare system is bad, but not for the top ~20% of earners. – JonathanReez Feb 11 '22 at 19:15
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    @JonathanReez It's definitely better for some but hiding behind "good healthcare plans” is kind of begging the question and “no true Scotsman“ argument. Even if you're in tech and you have a good coverage now, it matters in multiple ways. My experience goes beyond the tech community and it's definitely not the top 20% of earners who have nothing to worry about (how many people do you suppose work in tech?) The simple facts you're still dancing around is that (a) the bills are high and unpredictable and (2) you have to worry about what insurance you get. – Relaxed Feb 11 '22 at 22:46
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    Add to that the fact that academic careers are notoriously erratic (you admitted yourself even working at a university is not enough to know that will get something reasonable!) and you have already got a very different experience than that of the healthy 20-something engineers or double income couples you're chatting with. – Relaxed Feb 11 '22 at 22:52
  • @mgraham Its true that there is no tenure in the UK. However, the protections that tenure actaully grants are more or less the same as what are provided to all workers in the UK by law after 4 years. Now perhaps US institutions don't get rid of people as often as UK places do (although its still fairly rare - we are currently in an industrial dispute with my uni because they are abolishing a department for the first time in 50 years) - but legally the protections are the same. US unis can sack tenured staff for the right reasons, they just generally don't. – Ian Sudbery Feb 12 '22 at 10:48
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    @JonathanReez I worked at Harvard Medical School, and had one of the best heathcare plans around. I still had to pay $250/month out of my paycheck, on top of the $2000/month the employer was paying. And I still had to pay an alarming large co-pay when I went to the ER with chest pains and a numb arm. As a brit who had never paid a penny for any healthcare in my life, this was quite a shock. – Ian Sudbery Feb 12 '22 at 10:52
  • @Ian your health plan didn’t have a yearly out of pocket limit? Yeah you sometimes have to pay more but even if you hit the out of pocket limit you still get way more cash after tax than in Europe. Only thing that matters is final amount of $$$ in your account, everything else is a distraction. – JonathanReez Feb 13 '22 at 03:07
  • @Relaxed the bills are unpredictable but every plan has a yearly out of pocket plan which is perfectly predictable. You do have to worry about it I guess but it would be well worth the differential in income for top tier academics. – JonathanReez Feb 13 '22 at 03:10
  • @JonathanReez That's, again, not quite that easy. Not all plans have one and, even if things have improved with Obamacare, the limit is not insignificant. I assume many tech companies will offer a plan with an out-of-pocket maximum to their engineering staff (not necessarily to the customer support staff, contractors, or the gig-economy workers they arbitrarily defined as not being part of the staff) but that's only the beginning. The yearly out-of-pocket maximum is a cap on co-pays and deductibles for things that are covered in the first place, most importantly not out of network care… – Relaxed Feb 13 '22 at 10:25
  • @Relaxed my own plan includes both an in network and out of network yearly limit. So goes for the plan provided for employees of University of Washington. If you really want you can just assume you’ll hit the yearly out of pocket limit every year and use that number to calculate your expected income. Most peoples limit is at $5000/year for out of network - sounds like a lot until you realize that the pay differential is $50-100k/year after tax for a highly qualified academic employee. As mentioned above the only thing that matters is final expected amount of $$$ in your bank account. – JonathanReez Feb 13 '22 at 21:21
  • @JonathanReez Not really, there are many other aspects to qualify of life and you should not only look at your current situation but also at how it constrains your future choices. That's not the most important thing, though, you're constantly begging the question with “top-level academics” and “good plans”. Most people having a $5000 yearly out-of-pocket maximum for out of network care is pure fantasy. And that's a lot to understand and to worry about, in a context where bills are objectively very high (your original “myth“). – Relaxed Feb 13 '22 at 22:10
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    @JonathanReez You are an established academic who is lucky to work in a top-tier University providing very good remuneration and benefits. Most entry-level academics in the US do not enjoy the same privileges. Perhaps, consider yourself lucky without dismissing an objective problem as a "myth". – Dmitry Savostyanov Feb 13 '22 at 22:41
  • @Relaxed you are right - most people in the US don’t have such a plan. But if you can get a job with such a plan (which applies to a large number of Academia.SE users), you should plug in the numbers and get the total annual expected income, rather than relying on abstract generic claims like “US healthcare is expensive and unpredictable!”. I think we can both agree that it’s important to have all the right facts and numbers in your head before making a choice. That choice might be to stay in Europe but it should be a fully informed choice. – JonathanReez Feb 13 '22 at 22:45
  • @Dmitry there’s tons of people on Academia.SE with insane h-indexes or amazing research progress who could get any job in the world. I don’t want those people to potentially lose millions of dollars in lifetime compensation because of myths perpetuated over and over again on the Internet. They could choose to sacrifice those millions of course but then it’s an informed choice, not one based on myth. – JonathanReez Feb 14 '22 at 04:33
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    @JonathanReez The question is asked from the perspective of an entry-level faculty, not an established professor. Your comments seem to target a different group of people, but you never indicated that. This is confusing, because many entry-level faculty in the US won't enjoy the same benefits as you do. – Dmitry Savostyanov Feb 14 '22 at 09:15
  • @Dmitry there’s entry level positions in Harvard and Stanford and MIT too. If you’re good enough to get an entry level job at Oxford (as a lot of Academia.SE users have) you’re probably good enough for a top tier US college as well. And those top tier colleges all have great healthcare plans where you don’t have to worry about anything. I don’t know the exact cut off but I suspect the top 20 colleges in the US should all have excellent healthcare plans. – JonathanReez Feb 14 '22 at 09:22
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    @JonathanReez You could have made a more inclusive comment or at least indicate explicitly that the privileges of "excellent healthcare plans" only apply to top 20% of the applicants. Instead you continue your argument like the applicants who end up at the remaining 80% of schools do not exist or do not matter. – Dmitry Savostyanov Feb 14 '22 at 10:32
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    @JonathanReez I do not care that much about having excellent health insurance, if the median person sitting next to me in the BART cannot access the health system and are having (spreading) tubercolosis and they cannot cure it. (this was valid before Covid19, will be valid after Covid19 and will be valid for the next neoCovid). – EarlGrey Feb 14 '22 at 11:18
  • @EarlGrey that’s about as valid of an argument as saying moving to the US is a bad idea because your kids will get shot in school. Technically possible, statistically implausible. – JonathanReez Feb 14 '22 at 15:20
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    @JonathanReez Exactly! – EarlGrey Feb 14 '22 at 17:52
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A major thing to keep in mind is that it's relatively unusual for someone to have multiple offers that differ only by one being in the UK and one in the US. For example, many people only have one offer. But also suppose you have two offers, one in London and one in Iowa City, then most likely your opinions on living in a major city vs living in a cute college town is going to matter just as much as salary. Similarly, perhaps the offer in the UK is at a more prestigious school than the one in the US.

Speaking of prestigious schools, at the very top schools in the US there are no permanent entry-level jobs, whereas in the UK there are. Someone deciding between Princeton and Cambridge at a junior level is deciding between a temporary job and a permanent one, which allows Cambridge to be competitive. Moreover, at the senior level someone deciding between Princeton and Cambridge will likely be offered some kind of very fancy chair in the UK where the salary bands don't apply.

A second thing to keep in mind is that most faculty made their job decision in the past and not the present, and if circumstances change it may be unappealing or impossible to move to a comparable new job. This is especially important when comparing the US and the UK because right now the Pound is worth $1.3 but between 1990-2010 it was usually around $1.6 and got as high as $2 several times. A 25% pay raise would make British positions significantly more appealing. Especially with Brexit I do think it will be increasingly difficult for UK academia to maintain its historical competitiveness, but it takes decades for these trends to play out.

Finally, as everyone has said culture, familiarity, and proximity to family plays a huge role. Generally Americans prefer to stay in America and British people prefer to stay in the UK.

Noah Snyder
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    one in Iowa City -- I can't help but wonder how Iowa City as an example came about ... :) – Dave L Renfro Feb 08 '22 at 17:15
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    Well, everyone knows that River City is where the real trouble is... – Jon Custer Feb 08 '22 at 18:04
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    I wanted a place that was small but actually secretly a nice place to live, and also where people might actually have some idea where it is even if they're not USian (so having Iowa in the name is a plus). Thought about using my own town (Bloomington) as an example, but then it makes it sound like it might be a decision I actually made. I have had offers in neither Iowa City nor any of the schools in London, but have visited both! – Noah Snyder Feb 08 '22 at 19:36
  • My impression in speaking with UK colleagues is that there are no really permanent positions in the UK system, inasmuch as your unit can be unilaterally closed by admin with consequent redundancies. Did I misunderstand? – ZeroTheHero Feb 09 '22 at 09:00
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    @ZeroTheHero That's true of any job - if your employer closes down, you are made redundant – Joseph Wright Feb 09 '22 at 09:09
  • @NoahSnyder Yeah it's true that people don't generally have the luxury. But I was pretty successful on this last hiring round and have a few competing offers. The problem is I've never lived in any of the cities, and so I'm trying to get some idea of why people might like one place vs another. None are close to me right now, so I'm moving either way (I live in another country in Europe currently). And I don't really care about the GBP/USD exchange rate -- it's really about cost of living relative to salary, i.e., local purchasing power. The tenure system differences are definitely a plus. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:19
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    @user3037237 I think the problem here is if you don't have a preference and have multiple offers, the usual determinant would be not your perks, etc., but what's on offer for your research. We don't know what area you work in, but for me (lab-based research) I'd be thinking cash for my group for e.g. equipment, students, and wider environment e.g. shared equipment, potential collaborators. – Joseph Wright Feb 09 '22 at 09:52
  • @JosephWright have you found that those sort of lab-based perks are good in the UK relative to the US? Are there other perks you've found? – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 11:47
  • @user3037237 I'm afraid I can't comment on that: I've only ever worked in the UK, so whilst I know what I'd expect as 'start up' here in my subject area, I'm really not sure what one would get in other parts of the world. – Joseph Wright Feb 09 '22 at 11:51
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    @JosephWright sorry but maybe I was not clear: the admin. at my university cannot reorganize my job away. To close my unit would require extraordinary circumstances and a process spelled out in full in the faculty agreement. As a tenured professor, I am essentially immune from redundancy by administrative shuffle. – ZeroTheHero Feb 09 '22 at 12:54
  • @ZeroTheHero Sure, that's just covered though by standard employment law: in order to make someone (compulsory) redundant, there has to be a process including union consultation, etc. There have been redundancies at UK institutions, but they've attracted 'attention' and link to ceasing to teach certain areas. That tends to lead to people wanting to leave anyway: the usual issue is retaining enough staff to teach-out the course. – Joseph Wright Feb 09 '22 at 15:42
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    Fluctuations in exchange rate make very little difference to your life unless your income is in one currency and your expenditure in another. Which shows that applying today's exchange rate to compare salaries doesn't make much sense. – Michael Kay Feb 10 '22 at 12:29
  • @MichaelKay I don't care about the absolute differences in salary, but rather the relative differences in relation to cost of living, i.e., as quantified by local purchasing power. – user3037237 Feb 10 '22 at 15:09
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I was looking at faculty jobs

why? Are you considering a career in teaching? in research? are you looking to maximize your bank account and retire as a 45 years old? What are your motivations?

the UK has other perks.

Like lower death per gun related crimes constant autumnal weather (hey, someone likes it), a national health service which cares of you even if you are unfit to work while being sick (even if you are without contract from your employee: try to get cancer while a postdoc on 1-year contract in the US system ... the nice and generous health insurance offered by the uni will end as soon as your contract ends)

Why don't you consider moving to Singapore? there the academic salary are among the highest in the world.

Noah Snyder
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EarlGrey
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    "constant autumnal weather". Rain IS the best weather, nobody can convince me otherwise. – Clumsy cat Feb 08 '22 at 18:02
  • @Clumsycat only if you work for an umbrella maker IMO... ;) – ZeroTheHero Feb 08 '22 at 20:16
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    I was about to upvote for "lower death per gun related crimes" but though I wish you well and bear you no ill will, I cannot bring myself to upvote an answer presenting the UK's weather as a perk no matter how much I may agree with everything else you write. I have my limits! – terdon Feb 08 '22 at 23:11
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    @terdon Today is the first day above freezing in many months where I live, I'd take it. – Azor Ahai -him- Feb 09 '22 at 02:36
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    Unnecessarily condescending tone. – SpiderRico Feb 09 '22 at 07:26
  • You've totally missed my point. I'm not gunning for more money, but all else being equal everyone would take a job with more money. So assuming the US and the UK are not equal, I'm asking for someone to enlighten me as to that makes the UK good. I haven't spent much time there, and I'm considering applying for a job there. Sure, you've mentioned a few points, like crime and health care and weather, but these are negative values, i.e., the UK doesn't suck as much. Are there anythings that make the UK good?? – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:01
  • @EarlGrey I'm looking at standard reasearch-oriented faculty jobs. I have a few offers from universities around the world, but I've never been to the UK so I', curious what people love about it. I have no issue taking a lower salary, provided there's a reason to do so. I'm not going to just because. That's the whole point of my question -- I'm happy to consider moving to the UK, I just need a bit more information about what people love about it, and if this is related to their perks as a faculty there. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:23
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    @user3037237 so please reformulate your question to yourself, because in the question you pivot your discussion about money, either in form of salary or direct/indirect benefits. What do you find attractive in the UK? There is no need to ask what people loved about it, you are not people, you are you. Additionally, please consider the bias of your statistical sample: in the recent decade there is a number of people that moved from the UK to Syria (mostly to perform act of terrorism) ... ask them what they did not like about UK to have a view on what "people" think about UK. – EarlGrey Feb 09 '22 at 10:39
  • @terdon Actually, for me the climate is a clear perk of living in the UK. It is hardly ever too warm or too cold (Wales, not Scotland). And the rain isn't THAT bad. – Arno Feb 09 '22 at 10:46
  • @EarlGrey Like I keep saying, I've never been to the UK, so I have no idea what there might be to love about it. I'm guessing you've never lived in the UK and hence why you can't answer a really simple question about what makes it great or why you might recommend it to someone that's never lived there. So perhaps my question isn't really for you. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 11:44
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    @user3037237 I think a lot of it depends on what you personally value in a country. I you are a history nerd you would probably love all the old buildings and historical sites. If you like sunny beaches and warm weather the UK might not be for you. Maybe you could make yourself a list of what you value in a place to live? – Squirrel Feb 09 '22 at 13:13
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    "what makes it great or why you might recommend it to someone that's never lived there" Dear OP, I suggest you to either stop basing important personal decisions on reviews/sales pitches from someone else OR feel free to check on the huge internet marketplace named after a big river if there are favourable reviews about the product "living in the UK" :) . – EarlGrey Feb 10 '22 at 09:26
  • @EarlGrey I get it. You have no insight here. But asking faculty who've worked in the UK what they like about is a pretty honest question for academia.stackexchange. I'm not sure how else someone can make big life decisions about a place they've never been apart from doing research and getting people's opinions. Clearly you haven't been faculty in the US and the UK, so maybe this question isn't for you. – user3037237 Feb 10 '22 at 12:23
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    The joy of English weather is its variety - it changes from day to day, and is almost never extreme. We never get Siberian cold or tropical humidity; it's always within the human comfort zone. – Michael Kay Feb 10 '22 at 12:33
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    @ClumsyCat - absolutely; this is truly a green and pleasant land, and maintaining that much greenery takes a lot of aerially-distributed water. A very, very small price to pay for having grass and flowers in my garden 365 days a year. I remember the summer of '76 very well indeed - it was a vision of Hell and I'd rather not see those days again :-) – Spratty Feb 10 '22 at 12:47
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In any developed nation, and most others, higher faculty are sufficiently well paid to afford you a decent quality of life well above the local median, therefore choosing between jobs in different countries based on the salary rather than just choosing the country you want to live in doesn't seem a particularly compelling idea.

There are many reasons you might prefer the UK to the US, or vice versa, but how you prioritise these reasons is largely personal preference. Equally so for other countries.

Jack Aidley
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  • But that's my whole question -- I don't know if the UK is a place I want to live in because I've never lived there. But I'm totally up for considering it, I just want someone who's lived there (and ideally in the US) to tell me what they loved about it. It's a really simple question, and the one thing people are not doing across all these replies is telling me what they loved about it. Specifically I'm interesting in day to day quality of life. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:04
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    @user3037237 That's not really a question that's linked to the nature of the job - you could be outside academia and ask the same. Making the question that broad sounds to me like it would take it off-topic (though I'm not a regular here). – Joseph Wright Feb 09 '22 at 09:10
  • @JosephWright That's a fair point. But ideally I'm asking for people that have been faculty there, and if there are any perks related to their job/profession/day-to-day-life. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:24
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    @user3037237 In that case, framing your question around salary seems like a mistake. I would ask a different question specifically framed about differences in academic, research, and funding culture in the two countries or whatever it is that particularly interests you. The more general question seems too opinion based. For my part, I would never consider living in the US, and whilst I would have heartily recommended the UK to anyone a decade ago, the country is in a much worse state today and I would no longer do so, especially for immigrants. – Jack Aidley Feb 09 '22 at 09:42
  • @JackAidley Thanks for one of the first honest replies about your thoughts of living in the UK vs US. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 11:45
  • This is a bit of a misnomer. Absolute $$$ numbers matter too, as those $$$ will then go further and let you lead a higher quality of life, such as booking business class/4-star hotels vs economy/1-star hotels. People say it doesn't matter, but then there's always other things that do matter to you and you'll get more of them if you have more $$$. – JonathanReez Feb 11 '22 at 00:01
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    @JonathanReez Where you live, and spend 90% of your life, makes vastly more difference to your happiness and quality of life then whether you're in a 1-star hotel or a 4-star hotel when you're on holiday. – Jack Aidley Feb 11 '22 at 15:17
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I think your initial premise that US faculty salaries are higher is flawed and looks only at part of the picture. There definitely are US universities and colleges where the starting salary for an assistant professor/ lecturer is 80-100k US$. There are also colleges where the starting salary is more like 30-40k US$. The range of potential salaries in the US is huge and prestigeous universities will pay significantly more than less prestigeous ones.

This happens to a much smaller degree in the UK and even less in continental Europe. The UK system is graded into lecturers, readers and full professors with significant salary differences between these but a reader will have approximately the same salary at every university in the UK.

This means that if you are able to get a position at one of the very good institutions in the US you will earn a much higher nominal salary both compared to an average institution in the US and compared to any university in the UK. If you are not among those select few the UK system might actually offer you a higher salary.

quarague
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  • Sure, but I specified top-tier universities in big cities. Specifically I'm looking at a job in London, which starts at 60k USD. For comparison, my friend's starting salary at BU in Boston was 95k, yet boston is 15-25% less expensive than London. – user3037237 Feb 09 '22 at 09:06
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Some concrete, financial, benefits for the UK salary:

  • The total cost of healthcare is zero (actually, overseas people do have to have to pay a one off charge, but most universities will cover that). Not only does this mean you don't pay your monthly contribution to health insurance (I paid about 10% of my insurance costs when I was a postdoc in Boston), but if you were to get ill, there are no co-pays etc.
  • The pension scheme is very different: the university doesn't match 20%. The university pays 21%, and the employee pays 9% - the university pays in more than twice what the employee pays in. What that gets you is also very different from a 401K scheme common at US universities. The exact offer is the subject of on-going industrial action at the moment in the UK, but which ever side wins, the scheme will be a defined benefit scheme: in retirement you will be paid a guaranteed monthly payment, irrespective of how long you live, or what happens to the economy (this guarantee is ultimately backed by the government). The size of the payment is dependent on how long you work and at what salary. At the moment the offer is 1/65th of your (inflation adjusted) average salary for every year you work.
  • If you are in London it is highly likely you will not need to own a car. This is a massive saving on many peoples outgoings.
  • When I was in the Boston, the sum total of federal, state and property taxes was actually higher than my tax bill in the UK (I guess MA is a high tax state).
  • You get legally guaranteed employment rights from day one, not just paid holidays, but 28 weeks of sick pay, 9 months of parental leave that can be split between the parents (that's just the minimum, most unis give a year). After two years you cannot be sacked without a "legally valid" reason, and are legally entitled to severance pay. After 4 years you are automatically a permanent employee, which means "your contract is up" is no longer a "legally valid" reason.
  • As the employment is full-time 12 months, you will never be expected to fund your own salary, nor your take home pay affected by your ability to bring in research funding.

While this all adds up to the UK salary being worth more in the best case than it first appears, what it really adds up to is it being worth much more than it appears if anything goes wrong in life. The UK job offers more security, including financial security.

Ian Sudbery
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  • After two years you cannot be sacked without a "legally valid" reason, and are legally entitled to severance pay. After 4 years you are automatically a permanent employee, which means "your contract is up" is no longer a "legally valid" reason ... plus As the employment is full-time 12 months, you will never be expected to fund your own salary, nor your take home pay affected by your ability to bring in research funding. Yet this never saved your two colleagues who didn't pull in enough research funding, one of whom was a gifted teacher, you say. Something is missing here. – Trunk Feb 15 '22 at 14:16
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    As I said without a "legally valid" reason. Inability to do your job is one such valid reason. However, the process is long and complicated. The employer must show that they've given you specific instructions on what you are doing wrong, and what exactly to do to make it better. What counts as a reasonable expectation would be decided by a judge by reference to normal expectation in the field if you were to bring a claim of unfair dismissal. I believe that processes to dismiss "incompetent" professors technically exist in most US tenure contracts, but are very rarely used. – Ian Sudbery Feb 15 '22 at 19:33
  • @Trunk So, for example in the two cases you cite my colleagues were on "performance management programs" for well over a year before they were dismissed. – Ian Sudbery Feb 15 '22 at 19:35
  • So they had at least to part fund their own salaries within so many years under the 40-40-20 effort division? These cases stuck in my mind as it had to be heartbreaking for someone going home with a dismissal letter after giving their all in classes. – Trunk Feb 16 '22 at 00:49
  • @Trunk Its tricky - grants here don't tend to explicitly cover much of the PIs salary - maybe 5 or 10%. But of course they come with overheads.... Having a summer without a grant is not going to mean you are not paid, but too long without a grant and your position become difficult to maintain. – Ian Sudbery Feb 18 '22 at 11:48
  • I get the indirect nature of it all. Paradoxically, organizations with means to offer basic research funding fall for pitches stressing immediate applications for the project's output while companies depending on technological advantage tend to be a bit speculative - as long as the funding is not excessive. It's easy to get private sector support for final year projects and, if these look promising, for extension to MSc/PhD work. Must have trust between academic and funder. If dismissed Dr T offers seminars/CPD refreshers/etc to employers of his ex-students, maybe things may improve fundswise. – Trunk Feb 18 '22 at 13:20
4

Firstly, I see the salaries for junior lecturers being in the range £35,000 - £50,000 which is around $48,000 - $66,000 at current exchange rates. So your estimate of $65,000 is more at the top end of this range than in the average.

While many UK institutions have group health/invalidity/life/childcare/sports/etc benefits, these may vary a lot from one college to another. You would do well to read the fine print of these following an offer.

But to your question as to why - money apart - academics would choose UK over USA positions.

There are reasons that are specific to the field of study the academic engages in such as:

  • UK is the home of English language & literature and a period working and teaching here would be impressive on a resumé for someone involved in that endeavour. A similar case could be made for those involved in history, archaeology, politics, economics, philosophy, etc research centred on or closely related to developments in the UK or even Western Europe.

  • In fields that are declining, e.g. metallurgy, there may be few local applicants and it has become common for UK universities to recruit such faculty from countries with far bigger mineral/metallurgical industries like USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa or Russia.

  • It could happen that the an academic wants to be involved in the research work happening at some UK university department and peer congeniality is worth more - at least for a few years - than salary as they cut their research teeth.

There are also other reasons independent of the academic's field like:

  • USA students are quite challenging verbally in class, expect more assignments (plus feedback), take no pomposity and humbug from professors and thrive on continual engagement. Even for those brought up in US, some may not find this as agreeable as the more detached and generalized way of relating to students that is the norm in UK universities. (Of course there are also some UK-born academics who prefer the American way of education.)

  • There are loads of foreign faculty in UK universities - perhaps even more so than in USA - so academics who like exotic college social lives will really have a good time.

  • Education, health and social security benefits in UK are better in UK. This is important as an academic's own family reach their mid-teens and become a greater expense.

  • Lifestyle and human relationships in the UK suits people who are more reserved and don't want to mix with people purely on the basis of economic status.

  • Housing, especially housing in rural villages outside provincial UK cities, is relatively cheap and academic jobs are seen by bank managers as a good basis for a mortgage: fairly secure, many other expenses part-subsidized and promotion almost certain.

  • Some people are Anglophiles, Formula 1 enthusiasts, horse racing fans, rugby or soccer screamers, etc and find ample outlet for these passions within UK.

I think that it all comes down to what sort of person you are and what your priorities, both in academia and in the community, are that will guide your decision to work in the UK.

Please don't decide on the basis of some brief summer school experience.

Trunk
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If you're American, I don't think there is any particularly good reason to prefer an academic job in the UK. And in my experience there aren't many American academics working at British universities - fewer than there are British academics working at American universities.

However, UK universities have no trouble recruiting strong candidates from Europe, and from the UK itself, for whom there are clear geographical advantages of living at most a short-haul flight away from family. I would happily take a US faculty job if I didn't have family ties to the UK, but since I do it's simply not practical.

Especially Lime
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  • This is the best answer. Basically unless you're committed to a European lifestyle (see answer by @penelope), there's absolutely no reason imaginable to even consider such a move. – JonathanReez Feb 11 '22 at 00:05
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UK universities are willing to hire people who cannot legally work in the USA. Many US universities do not want to hire people who cannot legally work at their location because the application for a work visa is tedious and risky.

In other words, the upside of US salaries is mostly only available to UK faculty who already have a work visa or passport for the US.

US universities may also decide not to interview someone simply to avoid the cost of an international flight.

Anonymous Physicist
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    I doubt top tier US universities are deterred by the cost of an international flight, but I do suspect as you suggest that immigration issues (especially these days) might be a significant filter in both direction: never mind universities not being so keen to step into this web, not every European necessarily would want to work in the US academic system even if they could. – ZeroTheHero Feb 08 '22 at 20:15
  • @ZeroTheHero Yes, and this answer is about average US universities. It certainly does not apply to the wealthiest 1%. The cost of a flight is a deciding factor when you have many similar applicants. – Anonymous Physicist Feb 08 '22 at 21:16
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    I cannot imagine that many places would consider the cost of a flight ($1500) an important consideration in hiring someone who you will pay $100+k including fringe benefits for the next 30 years. – Wolfgang Bangerth Feb 10 '22 at 16:46
  • @WolfgangBangerth The search can come from a different budget than the salary. And as I mentioned before, the applicants are often otherwise very similar. – Anonymous Physicist Feb 10 '22 at 17:45