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I just got reviews back on a grant proposal. On the whole the reviews were positive, but one reviewer criticised us because the five PIs are all male.

The proposed project arises naturally out of a couple of strands of work that we’ve been doing recently. The PIs are the people who’ve been involved in that work, plus the CTO of an industry partner. We’re in a niche area of applied math, and neither of the institutions involved have female staff eligible for the grant scheme working in the area of our proposal.

I support efforts to fix gender imbalances in academia, and I would have preferred a mixed-gender team. However, I’m not sure what I could have done for this project. The options seem to be:

  • Propose a fundamentally different piece of work with different participants. However, this would likely not be of interest to the industry partner, which is central to the viability of the proposal. Our original idea would then presumably not get developed.

  • Expand the proposal to bring in female colleague(s) at another institution. However, the funding scheme essentially only provides the salary for one postdoc, so the benefits for PIs at additional institutions are limited. The obvious candidates are all a long-haul flight away, so day-to-day engagement would be challenging. I’m uncomfortable asking people to do work on my proposal when I can’t offer them much in exchange.

  • Ask someone to put their name on the proposal “for show”. Clearly offensive and counterproductive.

Does anyone have any advice on how to best reconcile diversity considerations with practical realities in these circumstances?

My question is more about the general issue – and whether there is anything I should have done differently – than about how to respond to these particular reviews.

Wrzlprmft
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user125303
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    How did the reviewer know that the 5 PIs are all male? Was this explicitly stated or was this an assumption made from people's names? – Owain Jun 14 '20 at 16:44
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    What kind of organization is the funder? Governmental? Business? Nonprofit? A wealthy individual? – indigochild Jun 15 '20 at 04:20
  • Moderator’s notice: Please only post comments in accordance to this FAQ. Do not share your opinion on this kind of criticism or policy; this is not the right place to debate this. Do not make any jokes. Comments and answers not adhering to this will be deleted without warning. – Wrzlprmft Jun 15 '20 at 05:27
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    Does this problem actually need to be solved? Is it a criticism that need to be addressed, aka that the project doesnt get funded if you dont solve it? – lalala Jun 15 '20 at 15:27
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    There was some discussion/complaint about the moderation notice above. I reviewed the deleted comments, reinstated one, and can confirm that the others were either answers-in-comments or obsolete. All the surviving comments seem like requests for information. Following this guidance, I then deleted the debate about moderation. Hopefully this satisfies all sides; if not, please take it to meta. – cag51 Jun 16 '20 at 03:28
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    @owain It is plausible that the reviewer has met most/all of us. – user125303 Jun 16 '20 at 08:34
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    @indigochild Government. – user125303 Jun 16 '20 at 08:35
  • @lalala As stated in the question, I am more concerned about the general issue than about this specific application. – user125303 Jun 16 '20 at 08:38

6 Answers6

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This is a hard and important problem. There are a few things you can do to address it.

First, admit that there is a problem indicated by the demographics of your discipline. Tell the funding agency that

neither of the institutions involved have female staff eligible for the grant scheme working in the area of our proposal.

Tell them briefly about your universities' plans for future diverse hiring. Tell them that the grant applicants do not have control over the diversity of current staff (if this is true).

Explain how the project will contribute to gender inclusivity. You said you plan to hire one postdoc. How will you encourage gender minority scientists to apply for that postdoc? How will your selection process prevent discrimination? How will that postdoc receive professional development that will advance their career?

Will you be communicating about your project to the public, and will that be done in a way that reaches people of all genders?

It sounds like your project is applied. Will the application benefit gender minorities? Even if they get a minority of the benefit, it's still worth pointing out that your project does not exclusively benefit one gender.

Do not add a token applicant. You are obligated to allocate the project funds efficiently. Some people argue that tokenism has the opposite of the intended effect.

Anonymous Physicist
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    And, long term, think about how you organize things and how you invite participation. – Buffy Jun 14 '20 at 14:15
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    A comment saying that there was no "problem" was deleted, but I'll try again: Saying that the, let's call it "demographic disparity" is a "problem" in this case would mean that the disparity is also a problem when it comes to beauticians or construction workers. Differences are not automatically a problem. As long as everybody has the same opportunities, there will be demographic differences. In order to eliminate these differences, you'd have to apply severe social and political pressure. That would be problem, because it would limit people's freedom to choose what they want to do. – Marco13 Jun 16 '20 at 01:05
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    "is also a problem when it comes to beauticians or construction workers" I'd say there is a problem. Many people take those jobs because they are excluded from better opportunities by discrimination. I don't think anyone wants to eliminate all demographic differences; what people actually want is for the demographic differences to stop being a symptom of discrimination. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 16 '20 at 01:17
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    How often do math problems "benefit gender minorities"? – Yuval Filmus Jun 16 '20 at 07:21
  • @YuvalFilmus For example, most things that have economic benefit will benefit gender minorities. The question does say the answer is "applied." It does not need to benefit a specific group exclusively. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 16 '20 at 08:01
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    @AnonymousPhysicist It's important to distinguish between 1. calling it a problem when there is discrimination against(!) certain people based on aspects that are not relevant for their competence in the respective field (like gender for mathematics), and 2. depicting mere demographic differences in a certain field as a "problem". The latter is is plainly wrong. Yes, you did not say this - you just vaguely talked about a ~"problem with demographics". As such, my comments here are urgent requests for clarification: Demographic differences are not a problem per se. – Marco13 Jun 16 '20 at 13:02
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    @Marco13 I think we basically agree, but you are splitting hairs. I edited the answer. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 16 '20 at 13:24
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    This is not splitting hairs. These things are the opposite of each other: When a demographic difference is "the problem", then every attempt to eliminate it would plainly be incompatible with the idea of equal opportunities. If unjust discrimination is "the problem", then eliminating it would be tantamount to trying to give everybody equal opportunities. The difference matters, and it matters a lot. – Marco13 Jun 16 '20 at 14:23
  • Two words: disparate impact – obscurans Jun 16 '20 at 15:48
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    @Marco13 I do not advocate for "equal opportunity." "If unjust discrimination is "the problem", then eliminating it would be tantamount to trying to give everybody equal opportunities" That is false. History matters. Past discrimination causes unequal and unjust results when there is currently equal opportunity. To achieve just results in reasonable period of time, equal opportunity is insufficient. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 17 '20 at 00:25
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    The main purpose of the comment was to request a better wording (I still do not agree with the current one, but at some points, these may just be opinions). Beyond that, there are several things that could be discussed, but this cannot sensibly be done here in the comments. But it you think that it is fair to treat you unfairly because some people that ~"are like you" did something wrong many years ago, then there could be many issues to unfold (and of course, I don't agree to that). – Marco13 Jun 17 '20 at 13:36
  • @Marco13 "because some people that ~"are like you" did something wrong many years ago" I do not advocate for retribution. I support helping people who were wronged. It's different. Reality is not a zero sum game. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 18 '20 at 01:17
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    Again: There are faaar too many aspects directly or indirectly related to that topic to unfold here, so I'll abstain from further discussion (assuming that the last few comments here might be deleted soon anyhow). But when you talk about "helping people who were wronged", my first question would be: "How far (in time) do you want to go back with that?". It's difficult... – Marco13 Jun 18 '20 at 13:45
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    @Marco13 My answer would be that I don't care. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 18 '20 at 22:54
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This can be answered with a pretty simple question:

Are the PIs the best people for the job?

If they are, then, quite frankly, there is nothing that needs "fixing" (at least in terms of this particular proposal, you may have wider problems in your field but they aren't your problem alone to solve and I digress).

If they aren't, then you should look at who is and have them on the project instead.

Whatever you do, don't add a female PI who isn't qualified or suitable for the position just to please the reviewer. It's not helpful and is actually rather patronizing and offensive. Also, dropping a PI just because they're a man and you need a woman is discrimination in and of itself.

Tokenism is just another form of sexism

In the long-term, it might be worth analysing the root causes of why the 5 best people all happen to be men.

However, that's not relevant for this proposal and isn't going to be a short-term fix. I'd suggest you write a letter to the reviewer indicating that you believe the 5 PIs are the best people for the position and leave it at that.

ScottishTapWater
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    I think a response that does not address diversity at all is unlikely to help the applicant more than not responding. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 16 '20 at 01:20
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    I would suggest that a reply stating that the PIs are the best people for the job and that the researchers don't wish to engage in tokenism is addressing diversity. – ScottishTapWater Jun 16 '20 at 08:03
  • Taken literally, your answer says not to say anything about tokenism. – Anonymous Physicist Jun 16 '20 at 08:07
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    Personally, I think saying the PIs are the best 5 people for the job implies that you don't want to engage in tokenism. However, you may disagree. – ScottishTapWater Jun 16 '20 at 08:12
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    @AnonymousPhysicist : This does address diversity. The "quite frankly" comment is one way. Addressing tokenism, a diversity-handling strategy that may be at least somewhat likely to be considered, is another way. Perhaps the poster addressed diversity in a way that doesn't seem favorable to you (addressed in the way you want), but in my opinion, it wasn't unaddressed. – TOOGAM Jun 16 '20 at 12:01
  • @TOOGAM The answer above is "I'd suggest you write a letter to the reviewer indicating that you believe the 5 PIs are the best people for the position and leave it at that." This does not address diversity. The rest of the "answer" does not actually answer the question "Does anyone have any advice on how to best reconcile diversity considerations with practical realities in these circumstances?" – Anonymous Physicist Jun 16 '20 at 13:28
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    @AnonymousPhysicist aye it does... It points out that if you have the best people for the job in the position, then that's that. You've made your diversity considerations and that's perfectly practical. If you don't then you reassess and pick the best 5. How does that not answer the question? – ScottishTapWater Jun 16 '20 at 16:41
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I once submitted a math paper to a top 5 journal, and when the reports came back the referee said that it was more appropriate for the next tier because 1) It only constructs one object which was already predicted to exist and 2) It uses an extensive computer calculation. These were undoubtedly true facts about the paper, and certainly it'd be a stronger paper if it constructed a family of objects or if it didn't require a computer. Nonetheless, it was a very good paper, and there was nothing we could do to address either of these criticisms. We'd thought a lot about whether we could make either of those improvements and we couldn't. 10 years later I still think about whether we can fit that object into a family and I still can't do it, 10 years later I still think about whether there's a less computational approach and there still isn't. Nonetheless, despite there being nothing we could do to address the criticisms, they rejected the paper because top 5 journals have plenty of great papers and can afford to reject your excellent paper because of valid criticisms that you can't do anything about.

All of this is just to say that you should really seriously think about their criticism and see whether you can address it in a productive and substantive way, and if you conclude that you can't do so, then you need to accept that they might reject the proposal simply because they have other proposals that are just as good and which also broaden participation of women in your field. Next time you have an idea for a proposal think about including women co-PIs earlier in the process and maybe you can find a different local maximum (somewhat different subject, different direction of collaboration, different mode of collaboration) which avoids the drawback identified in this proposal. By all means follow Anonymous Physicists excellent suggestions and maybe they will fund the proposal, but in the end it comes down to their judgement and all you're really owed here is that they explain their judgement and that this judgement be based on accurate and valid reasons. In this case they've identified a valid criticism and communicated it to you, and ultimately it's their judgement call.

Noah Snyder
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4

I do not see how the problem can be solved without adding a female researcher in the project. It is quite difficult to tell the way, however, without knowing the field and the day-to-day modus operandi. I would not be as hesitant as the OP in asking colleagues from other universities or internal PhD students or post-docs, given some familiarity. A PhD student might be quite willing to contribute to add the grant in her CV (a very competitive asset), while a post-doc or academic might be interested in forming working relations through a side-project. In that light, the payment, duties etc are negotiable - they might actually prefer a low commitment involvement that includes drafting, writing, some statistical analysis, data collection etc. The OP will never know without asking and grunt work is not the same as a token name on the poject. I would explore the OP's second option more thoroughly, but have no opinion on the amount or type of compensation the female researcher can be provided.

It is also a bit of a long-shot and probably not workable, but can't a PhD/ post-doc hire be fast-tracked and be tied to the project somehow? Is there any way that is feasible, legal and not morally questionable given the circumstances?

All the above are subject to the type of work the project implies (lab work, experiments, everything can turn online without too many problems etc).

0

There are correct answers, politically correct answers, and answers that get you funded expeditiously. The last one of those is: yes, add someone for token, and allocate minimal funds for her. A math project should focus on solving the math problems.

Uchicago_faculty_anon
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    No no no. It will be obvious and it won't get you funded. – Buffy Jun 14 '20 at 14:16
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    This is a terrible and unuseful answer, I don't understand why it has been upvoted – Kai Jun 14 '20 at 15:07
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    No no no. It’s unethical (but it’s not at all obvious to me that it won’t get you funded. Then again robbing a bank will also get you funded but that doesn’t mean it’s something you should do). – Dan Romik Jun 14 '20 at 16:25
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    I'm not sure whether this would mean actually employing someone in the token place, but if yes, this is a terrible advice. Apart from everything, think of the personal point. You suggest employing someone with minimal funds (and salary) for a probably weightless/unnecessary position just to comply with gender equality. How would this newly hired person feel? I assume there was a reason for single-man hire. Maybe there's not enough funds for two. Maybe there's not enough work for two. Making the unnecessary woman hire cook coffees all day for the original hire would be terrible. – Neinstein Jun 14 '20 at 17:45
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    @Neinstein A token PI. No funding, no work, and a free dinner with every project meeting. Of course no sensible prof will give her name for that if there isn´t a very good explanation why she´s added to the team list. In which case she should likely have been on there before. – Karl Jun 14 '20 at 17:56
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    I suspect your sponsored projects office would be very interested in knowing why you have proposed adding a PI with no duties. – indigochild Jun 15 '20 at 04:21
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    This answer explicitly prioritizes obtaining funding over professional ethics. Anyone with integrity should see it for what it is and ignore it. – Greg Martin Jun 15 '20 at 07:15
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    I could not find in the answer what some of the comments suggest: Employing someone with minimal funds and salary, or adding a PI who will have no duties. The funds could be used to support a PhD student and post-doc who already has some other funding, either by offering them a slightly longer contract or, in countries where Math PhD students and post-docs usually don't get full-time positions, more work hours and a higher salary. – lighthouse keeper Jun 15 '20 at 07:19
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    While this would be a morally bad thing to do, this is a good answer since this is how it often happens in reality. – user111388 Jun 15 '20 at 09:22
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    Practically speaking, I think @user111388 is right. Actually, a female PI hired for token purpose may make significant contribution later. Who knows? I highly doubt neither of the institutions involved have female staff eligible for the grant scheme working in the area of our proposal unless all the institutions are of small size. I have seen many (applied) mathematicians want to change fields. Some of them must be female and willing to adapt themselves for a different research area. – Nobody Jun 15 '20 at 09:52
  • @user111388 That’s one hell of a non-sequitur: it’s good because that’s what happens in reality, despite being morally bad? You (and currently 26 others) have a very odd conception of what makes a good answer. Note that the question wasn’t “what do people do” but “what should I do?” – Konrad Rudolph Jun 15 '20 at 14:56
  • @KonradRudolph: I am sorry for the misunderstanding. It is morally bad and I wouldn't recommend it. I think it's "good" not in the sense of "one should follow the advice" but " "it happens in practice, so the answer should stand in this forum and be discussed". It would IMO be a shame if there was no hint of that happening. (I don't know what you mean by me and 26 others.) – user111388 Jun 15 '20 at 19:51
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If I see you have five PIs, all male, there are three possibilities: Pure chance, or you don’t want women on your team, or there are not enough female candidates (after all, they might have all gone to better teams).

In the first two cases you should know how to fix the problem. Although removing someone from the team for being male looks like illegal discrimination as well.

In the latter case, check which qualified women there are, and why they are not on your team. If you can reply “there are 7 qualified women. #1 works on X. #2 works on Y etc.” that should help. And obviously add that the number of qualified women is outside your control.

gnasher729
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