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I'm trying to get an engineering post doc which I will conduct at a company's R&D labs, however I need to jump through all of the sponsoring university's hoops. I just received their application form and some of the questions are very personal. I thought such questions would be illegal in any European country. Are questions like your marital status, number and name of your children, date, place of birth...normal? The number of ways a candidate maybe discriminated against based on their responses would be exponential.

lighthouse keeper
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Saeid Alami
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  • Is it the season for this question? https://workplace.stackexchange.com/q/104227/29390 –  Dec 22 '17 at 08:22
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    Is this a public university? That would be strange. – Herman Toothrot Dec 22 '17 at 10:09
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    As a french person, this is not that strange in France, although completely unethical. There is a huge discrimination based on age and perhaps other things too, and you can't do anything about it because it is already deeply "settled". I am disappointed by the country I was born in. – Evariste Dec 22 '17 at 10:53
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    Are you sure it has to do with your post doc? Sounds like immigration check and stay permit. – Alchimista Dec 22 '17 at 12:03
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    You (or a secretary you were in contact with) probably misunderstood something. These questions are entirely normal and expected when preparing your contract. They will come when you got an offer, not when you are applying. – Szabolcs Dec 22 '17 at 14:05
  • I'm mainly trying to understand France, hence the question (I have seen similar things in Denmark). I'm not quite sure what's going on. I have an application with one French university and the whole process was very normal but I would like this one because I can be in the industry. The institution in question is very highly respected. The application form also asked for my CV, copy of passport, nationality...which is normal to check eligibility but I think the questions should be separate and secrete. Although in all honesty I work in academia and I don't expect professionalism in general. – Saeid Alami Dec 22 '17 at 14:14
  • In Brazil, this information is not only normal but also mandated by most regimental agencies. Sometimes you even need to bring proof that you vaccinated your kids before joining a business or an academic program. – T. Sar Dec 22 '17 at 14:29
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    Are you applying to a position in a restricted environment (e.g. defense related or closely related team) ? For some positions the lab may need an approval of the ministry of research which investigates the applicant background before allowing someone to actually be hired (in my lab it's called "FSD": fonctionnaire sécurité défense / defense-security staff). However I don't know if they require all these personal details as I've never experienced this process myself. – strnk Dec 22 '17 at 14:33
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    I guess they erroneously sent you a form to prepare a contract, not an application. They'll need that information to properly register you with health insurance, tax authorities, etc. – Karl Dec 22 '17 at 17:13
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    My guesstimate (from a German point of view) is also that you got a set of forms for preparing the contract. My advise would be to ask whether you got the right set of forms as this looks to you like forms for preparing the contract rather than forms for the application/candidate selection process. After all, if you got the wrong forms, you may be missing the right ones... (Or, could it be that they already decided to hire you? And in consequence try so speed up burocracy by sending you all forms at once - particularly if two institutions are involved?) – cbeleites unhappy with SX Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
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    Another possibility is that parts of the form are irrelevant for you and they didn't tell you that they don't expect you to fill this in. Also here the solution is: ask them. (In Italy, I once got a social insurance form whose relevance neither I nor my Italian colleagues understood. It turned out to be irrelevant, when they gave me the form they just "forgot" to mention that all they wanted me to fill in was my address and social insurance data and as that is asked on all forms, they just gave me some form.) – cbeleites unhappy with SX Dec 23 '17 at 16:31
  • @cbeleites I think it is to prepare the contract as I applied for the job based on recommendation (I haven't actually seen the job description - I did the exact job for my PhD with the same team) but I have not been offered the job officially which makes sense. I have lots of applications out as I'm bored but this one has been the strangest. – Saeid Alami Dec 27 '17 at 13:01
  • @strnk - No SC required for the position (I won't clear it - got rejected from a French rocket tech company on failing SC - never asked such questions). – Saeid Alami Dec 27 '17 at 13:01

4 Answers4

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No, it is not "normal". According to the French labor code:

Les informations demandées, sous quelque forme que ce soit, au candidat à un emploi ne peuvent avoir comme finalité que d'apprécier sa capacité à occuper l'emploi proposé ou ses aptitudes professionnelles.

Ces informations doivent présenter un lien direct et nécessaire avec l'emploi proposé ou avec l'évaluation des aptitudes professionnelles.

Translated by myself:

The only purpose of any question asked, under any form, to a candidate for a job must be to evaluate their ability to perform their work duties or to evaluate their professional aptitude.

These questions must have a direct and necessary link with the offered job or with the evaluation of professional aptitude.

It is straight up illegal to ask these question (and it has been since at least 2008). You shouldn't answer them, and provide them a link to the labor code (and perhaps offer to call the labor inspectors to clarify the situation) if they get upset. Your age, your marital status, your possible children have no bearing on your ability to perform your duties as a postdoc (there are some exceptions, postdoc is certainly not one of them).

Now, is it "normal" in the sense that it is the norm? Employment law is unfortunately not the best-respected law around here...

Community
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    Great answer. I wonder what the best way to react is, though. They might take your not answering as a negative sign, and turn down your application because of this ("we don't want people that are too conscious of their rights and may cause legal problems in future"). This is probably even more illegal, I know, but at this point in practice your only solution is a long and uncertain lawsuit. I am not familiar at all with the French legal system, but I would at least consider "answer those questions, then sue them if you don't get the job" as a possible alternative strategy. – Federico Poloni Dec 22 '17 at 09:41
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    @FedericoPoloni It is indeed possible to sue them after the fact. We even have specialized labor courts to deal with this kind of thing. There have been cases where some employer had to pay damages, or offer a job to a wronged applicant. I have been fortunate enough to never requiring to deal with them myself, though... @ OP If you're serious about this, you can call the labor inspectors (inspection du travail) and ask them questions directly, they may be able to answer. –  Dec 22 '17 at 09:50
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    Check this out, also: http://travail-emploi.gouv.fr/droit-du-travail/contrats-et-carriere/article/offre-d-emploi-et-embauche-les-droits-du-candidat –  Dec 22 '17 at 09:55
  • I think there's an important question that isn't addressed in this answer: does any of this actually apply to foreigners (especially ones outside the EU)? These things all sound relevant to Visa matters, which is an extremely pertinent part of bringing in any foreign hire. – zibadawa timmy Dec 22 '17 at 10:27
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    @zibadawatimmy Of course it does apply to foreigners. Applying for a visa is a completely different matter, however. It is my understanding that the procedures for a visa would start only after the candidate is selected for the job. Let me also say that I can only hope that you did not rely on OP's name to determine whether or not they are French (or a EU citizen). –  Dec 22 '17 at 10:39
  • Unfortunately, the way this law is phrased makes it very easy for people to just make things up and pretend that being born in January is a significant shortcoming for a PhD candidate or whatever jobs one might want to apply to. – Evariste Dec 22 '17 at 10:59
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    @Evariste The prud'hommes aren't stupid, in general... Seriously, try to convince me right now that being born in January impediments the performance of the duties of a postdoc? I can bet you that no reasonable person is going to be convinced. –  Dec 22 '17 at 11:02
  • @NajibIdrissi Well, studies have shown that the odds of developing schizophrenia is higher for people born in winter rather than during summer... – Evariste Dec 22 '17 at 11:13
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    Exactly on this topic: the link posted above by Najib Idrissi includes a section which says that using astrology in the hiring process is not against the law. (!!) – Federico Poloni Dec 22 '17 at 12:32
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    If you are afraid of being rejected because you did not answer those questions (even though this is illegal), couldn't you just lie? Surely, it would be a hard for them to sue you for providing false information as they should not have asked for it in the first place. – Droplet Dec 22 '17 at 12:38
  • @FedericoPoloni Just to clarify, the section also says that in case of conflict, a judge will evaluate the relevance of the method used to select candidates (hint: for astrology it's going to be close to zero). –  Dec 22 '17 at 12:41
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    @Droplet That's a very bad idea. Lying during a job application is grounds for the company to unilaterally terminate your contract. They are not going to sue you; they are going to fire you. –  Dec 22 '17 at 12:42
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    @NajibIdrissi Thank you for the detailed answer. I anticipate I will be offered the position regardless of the form as I have been recommended by the industrial partner. Its just I'm trying to understand the process and the country. I anticipate unprofessionalism from academia in general but would like to know my rights. I understand checking eligibility but that should be done by HR privately and separate from the job application. I would have been happy if HR asked for my passport, diplomas...and mentioned what parts of the forms were optional, but the whole process is disorganised. – Saeid Alami Dec 22 '17 at 14:22
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    In the UK eligibility is checked for all applicants on the day of the interview for universities. This applies to everyone including British Citizens. I'm glad at least in principle the same laws apply. Lots of universities in the UK are a bunch of cowboys too, including a lot of the Russel Groups. – Saeid Alami Dec 22 '17 at 14:26
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    This is a nicely constructed answer but I agree with whoever it was who said that it's missing the practical, take-home advice to OP. @SaeidAlami - if this were the US I would advise you to leave the weird questions blank and send it in without calling attention to the omission. Then, if you get an email from an individual complaining that the form is incomplete, you can politely and gently (i.e. not stiffly) ask what the basis is for asking just personal questions that are not directly relevant to job performance. I will make a stab with very rusty French (forgive me if I ... – aparente001 Dec 22 '17 at 22:24
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    ... butcher it): "S'il vous plaît, je voudrais comprendre la raison de demander ces détailles, qui en tout cas n'ont pas de rélévance directe au travail que je solicite" then just paste in the two paragraphs Najib provided. In other words, operate on the assumption that some clerk somewhere made a mistake. @NajibIdrissi - please straighten me out if you disagree. – aparente001 Dec 22 '17 at 22:26
  • @aparente001: I like your approach to answer what is to be done in practice. Although my French is even more rusty than yours, I'd avoid saying the questions are "irrelevant for the work" as they will become relevant for preparing the contract. I'd try to formulate more neutrally whether the correct set of forms was sent. – cbeleites unhappy with SX Dec 23 '17 at 16:27
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No it is not normal. These question are not posed by an university office in France ( the same probably applies in most of Europe , surely in Italy and Austria as well) as far as professional competence and attitude must be evaluated.

It is likely that the university has provided you with formular emanating from immigration offices, inherent to getting a stay in France as prerequisite or concomitant requisite to obtain a post doc position.

If you are EU citizen than our work laws and workers protecting laws are indeed in danger if not already totally dismantled...

Alchimista
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  • I'm a British Citizen, so for now I don't need a visa (maybe - could change any minute based on the politicians mood these days).

    The form should have been completed after an offer was made and should not have required my CV!

     – Saeid Alami Dec 22 '17 at 14:28
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When applying to US and UK, I remember answering questions regarding to race, disability etc. Of course, it was mentioned that this information is collected only for ensuring that there is no discrimination (for this, you need statistics), and probably the people deciding who to hire did not see that (I hope). So yes, it seems to be normal that you may be asked some weird questions.

HMN
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    What makes you think that your experience in the US and the UK has any relation whatsoever to French employment law? It is written very explicitly in the French labor code that asking these questions is illegal. –  Dec 22 '17 at 09:18
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    Usually, such questions would be clearly marked as optional, and for statistical purposes only. Furthermore, they would be to ensure that certain protected classes of people (e.g. women and racial minorities) are not discriminated against. Marital status and names of children would not be appropriate for such surveys. – 200_success Dec 22 '17 at 18:07
  • I believe those questions are optional in the US. – aparente001 Dec 22 '17 at 22:12
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In fact this is normal. In France, public employees can have more money if they have children. Wife and children health care can also be managed by the university.

So university will need all information about your familly. It's not legal to use it to decide to take you or not, but you have to give it if they hire you.

Nicole
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    They will only need this information after hiring the candidate. –  Dec 22 '17 at 13:01
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    It is correct that family has benefits but I agree with Najib Idrissi. In my case my private situation had not to bee discussed before hiring. – Alchimista Dec 22 '17 at 15:26