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I know he's supposed to be an evil super-genius, but the Emperor seems to lack common sense here. He sensed that Vader's feelings about Luke weren't clear pretty early on, and while he was using Force lightning on Luke, Vader was doing the exaggerated "Look at Luke, now look at the Emperor. Look at Luke, now look at the Emperor" thing for a good 15 seconds or so. Granted, the Emperor had little peripheral vision with his hood on, but Vader can't turn his head without also turning his torso to some extent, and someone with the Force should be able to tell when someone in the room is moving.

EDIT: I just found out that the 2011 Blu-Ray edition has inserted audio of Vader saying "No", then SCREAMING "Nooooooooo!" while the Emperor is using his Force Lightning on Luke. This makes the Emperor's obliviousness even harder to explain.

Why does it seem like it never occurred to him that Vader might react badly to seeing his son being brutally tortured to death in front of him? Why have Vader stick around to see that?

Null
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Wad Cheber
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    Even worse, he had been given a script for the scene well before the incident that clearly said what would happen! – Oldcat Apr 06 '15 at 23:02
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    This is a rant. I'm sure there's a good question in here if you make some effort to edit out the commentary... – Valorum Apr 06 '15 at 23:04
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    Using Force Lightning takes focus and determination. Remember at this time The Emperor tried to get Luke to join the Dark Side and replace Vader, but was disappointed. It sounds like he was preoccupied by a) using the force b) his anger at his inability to turn Luke c) the comfort with Vader who was his old used puppet to be significant anymore – MAF Apr 06 '15 at 23:04
  • @Richard - better? – Wad Cheber Apr 06 '15 at 23:13
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    @wadCheber - Much. – Valorum Apr 06 '15 at 23:20
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    @MatthewFrontino - In the Mace Windu lightning scene, Palpatine is carrying on a conversation with Anakin and pretending to be weak while he is shooting bolts from his hands, and this happened in the middle of a VERY intense fight.

    In the scene where Luke is being shocked, the fight is over, Luke is defenseless, and the Emperor is literally laughing as he is doing it.

    He doesn't seem very focused in either case.

    – Wad Cheber Apr 06 '15 at 23:39
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    @WadCheber Palpatine is much younger in Episode III as well. Yes, the Emperor was laughing, because he again assumed Vader his puppet and forgot what really made Vader turn, his overwhelming love for his family – MAF Apr 07 '15 at 02:44
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    @Richard - stash this links somewhere for canonical example that on hold questions can and DO get improved and reopened :) – DVK-on-Ahch-To Apr 07 '15 at 14:30
  • This seems appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGSIzFEFK6Y – Ellesedil Apr 09 '15 at 14:32
  • @OP: You don't have siblings, eh? – Trollwut Jun 29 '15 at 15:55
  • @Trollwut - I have 5. – Wad Cheber Jun 29 '15 at 16:06
  • Then you should be used to get tickled even when you cry "NOOOOO! STOP!" :D – Trollwut Jun 29 '15 at 16:14
  • Good question, especially considering Darth says the following in Empire Strikes Back: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." – Shon Jun 29 '15 at 16:42
  • @Oldcat: which leads us to another Sith Law: #2317 - ALWAYS READ THE SCRIPT!!!!! – Bob Jarvis - Слава Україні Nov 18 '19 at 04:47
  • @WadCheber - so much for the Rule of Two... – Bob Jarvis - Слава Україні Nov 18 '19 at 04:47

6 Answers6

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Luke gives us the answer when he tells the Emperor:

Your overconfidence is your weakness.

The Emperor was overconfident that the Rebel fleet would fail and that he could turn Luke to the dark side. The Emperor was also overconfident in his hold over Vader.

The Emperor's confidence in his hold over Vader wasn't wholly unreasonable, though. First of all, Vader pledged to turn Luke or kill him in Episode V:

He will join us or die, my master.

That's not something a normal father would say about his son.

Moreover, we should remember why Vader chose to join the Sith (and remain a Sith) for decades. That question has been asked before, and some of the reasons I gave in my answer are relevant here:

  • He has psychologically separated himself from Anakin:

    Luke: I have accepted that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

    Darth Vader: [angrily] That name no longer has any meaning for me!

  • He is afraid of the Emperor:

    Luke: Come with me. Leave everything behind.

    Darth Vader: Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master.

  • He feels that he is beyond redemption:

    Luke: Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.

    Darth Vader: It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.

    Considering the atrocities he participated in (destruction of Alderaan, cold-blooded murder of younglings, etc.) it is no surprise that Vader thinks he is beyond redemption.

The first point is particularly important: if Vader no longer thinks of himself as Anakin, then Luke is not his son. The Emperor knows this, so he feels there is no danger in torturing Luke in front of Vader. This fact, combined with Vader's fear of the Emperor's power and the fact that Vader himself feels he is beyond redemption, gives the Emperor confidence that Vader would not betray him. The Emperor was overconfident, but his confidence was not wholly unjustified. Of course, Luke was right because Vader hasn't fully disconnected himself from Anakin (notice Vader slips and calls Luke "son" when he says it's too late for him).

It's also worth pointing out that the Emperor has been a Sith for much of his life and never had a family of his own. The Emperor does not understand the power of a father's love for his son. This lack of understanding contributed greatly to the Emperor's false confidence in his hold over Vader.

Null
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    "I MUST obey my master - except in the last movie, where I said 'Luke, I'm you're dad. Wanna kill my master with me and rule the galaxy together?'" – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:08
  • See my answer to this question for why this might not be true. http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/35799/what-was-emperors-plan-after-seducing-luke-to-the-dark-side/85739#85739 – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:41
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    @WadCheber What might not be true? Regarding Vader obeying his master, in Episode V he was trying to convince Luke to join him (and the dark side) to kill the Emperor together. He felt he and (dark side) Luke would be strong enough to kill the Emperor. But in Episode VI, Luke is a committed light side Jedi and wants Vader to run away. Vader doesn't think he is strong enough to kill the Emperor alone or even with light side Luke (because he thinks the dark side is stronger). So in Episode VI he thinks he has no choice but to obey his master. – Null Apr 07 '15 at 19:12
  • Again, read my answer in the link I provided. Vader was VERY disobedient throughout episode VI in the original scripts. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:15
  • Rough Draft:

    Vader and Jerjerrod arrive on Had Abbadon to meet with the Emperor. They go deep into the planet where the throne room is, overlooking a lake of fire. Vader and Jerjerrod kneel. the Emperor tells Vader that he’s been away too long, and his powers have gotten weak. Luke has become too powerful and must be destroyed. Vader tries to disagree, but is choked. Luke is the Emperor’s to destroy, and he dismisses Vader. Once gone, the Emperor tells Jerjerrod to look carefully at Vader. Luke will NOT be destroyed, but will be turned into a new Dark Lord.

    – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:18
  • Revised Rough Draft:

    Vader demands to know why the Emperor has not responded to any of Vader’s transmissions. Jerjerrod evades the question, but Vader insists on an answer and a reason for his orders to return home.

    – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:18
  • Jerjerrod tells Vader the the Emperor is disturbed that Vader failed to bring Skywalker to the Emperor and has decided to take charge of the matter personally. Vader will now supervise the construction of the two Death Stars. Vader is furious, but Jerjerrod explains that the Emperor believe he still has feelings for his son that are getting into the way. In the communication chamber, Jerjerrod kneels before an image of the Emperor who demands that Skywalker be brought to him. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:18
  • Vader must not know anything of this conversation. Jerjerrod suggest that the upcoming Rebel battle will distract Vader from Luke long enough to bring Luke to the Emperor. Vader kills Jerjerrod when he finds that Luke has been taken to the Emperor. Vader goes to meet the Emperor. He is stopped by two guards, whom he kills. Vader demands to know wher eLuke is, and the Emperor chokes him. The Emperor says Vader’s place is with the fleet, and Luke is the Emperor’s to train. Vader asks for forgiveness and leaves. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:18
  • But after he asks for forgiveness, he teams up with Force-ghost Ben and Force-ghost Yoda to stop the Emperor. The Emperor is killing Luke when he suddenly realizes that the Skywalker he perceived as a threat was never Luke -it was Vader. Not two seconds later, Vader grabs the Emperor and dives into the lake of fire with him. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:21
  • @WadCheber I read your answer, but these are scenes that were deleted from the final script and are therefore not canon. So canonically, Vader was obedient not just in Episode VI but in Episode V and all the decades since he had joined the Sith. – Null Apr 07 '15 at 19:22
  • How is asking Luke to help him kill the boss "obedient"? – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:23
  • The final script of Episode III has Vader flinging medical droids at Palpatine immediately after he puts his helmet on. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:25
  • @WadCheber In Episode V, Vader pledged to the Emperor that Luke would join them or die. Imploring Luke to help him kill the Emperor is not obedient (except in the Sith Rule of Two sense, in which Vader is expected to challenge his master), but Vader was obedient overall. – Null Apr 07 '15 at 19:25
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    Darth Vader: My son is with them. The Emperor: Are you sure? Darth Vader: I have felt him, my master. The Emperor: Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader. Darth Vader: They are clear, my master. How was this not a huge red flag? – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:27
  • The fact that the Rule of Two (or one, occasionally) exists means that Palpatine should never trust Vader. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 19:30
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    @Null Not only were those scenes deleted from the final script, they have almost nothing in common with it. They are completely irrelevant. – KSmarts Apr 07 '15 at 20:24
  • @KSmarts - Nonsense. They show what Lucas and the writers were thinking and how their ideas evolved. – Wad Cheber Apr 08 '15 at 19:42
  • @KSmarts - see my new edit to the question - I just found out that the 2011 Blu-Ray edition has inserted audio of Vader saying "No", then SCREAMING "Nooooooooo!" while the Emperor is using his Force Lightning on Luke. This makes the Emperor's cluelessness even harder to explain. – Wad Cheber Apr 27 '15 at 00:36
9

Why does it seem like it never occurred to him that Vader might react badly to seeing his son being brutally tortured to death in front of him? Why have Vader stick around to see that?

If Vader had not known about the existence of his son until his fight in front of Sidious, then I expect he would have dispatched Luke without consideration.

As it is, he had a great deal of time to think about the fact that he had children before he had to fight or watch Luke be tortured. Further, he had threaded the needle, so to speak, and convinced Sidious that 1) he was loyal and 2) to allow Luke to live long enough to make him an apprentice.

Keep in mind that it was family connection and love that Sidious used to bring Anakin under his wing. Sidious knows better than others why the Jedi did not have worldly attachments - including to family.

Sidious knew perfectly well that there is lingering feelings in Vader, he said as much, "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader."

For Sidious this is both a gamble, and a test. On top of his overconfidence - he honestly believed he could best both Luke and Vader if needed - he was pushing Vader to further solidify his master role, and he was risking the loss of Vader to gain a new, better apprentice.

Thus I expect that it was Sidious's belief that he could handle both Luke and Vader if Vader turned. If Vader did turn, Sidious would lose a poor apprentice and a possible apprentice, but he would still have Leia as an opportunity later.

Vader never needed to use his full force capability after visiting the Jedi Temple, and at that point he was using it to protect his family, from his perspective. Since the loss of Padme and any significant jedi opposition, though, he had little reason to exert himself.

Sidious, who had a great view of Anakin's power, realized Vader wasn't half the man Anakin was. He may have assumed that the decrease in power was due to his physical injuries, constant pain, and constant force exertion to keep himself alive. He may have assumed, even, that Luke might be more powerful, but was certainly not well trained.

So Sidious was confident that he could handle both. Further, Vader continued to obey him, attacking Luke, defending Sidious (despite no need to do so), etc. So the chance of Vader turning must have seemed low.

Vader, however, did develop a desire for his son's life and happiness, and when it came down to a decision between Luke and Sidious, he chose Luke.

At that point he picks up Sidious, the lightning appears to go away from Luke, and Sidious looks surprised. Why should he be surprised? Vader's strength is known to him. Why doesn't he attack Vader?

The answer is: He can't.

Vader is not only able to lift him like a doll, but is actively using the force to redirect Sidious's attack. The power Vader uses is enough to overcome Sidious's attack, and this is what is surprising - the powerful Anakin Skywalker is still inside that suit - and now he has a reason to use the power that hadn't been exercised since he entered the Jedi Temple to do terrible harm to protect his wife.

Vader, alone, was more powerful than Sidious.

It wasn't that Sidious didn't consider that Vader might turn against him. It was purely that Sidious believed himself to be stronger than Vader.

Adam Davis
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  • The conclusion is consistent with the Rule of Two: Once Vader became more powerful than Sidious, his duty was to kill Sidious (see the trope Klingon Promotion). Sidious had no reason to anticipate that Vader would suddenly surge. And as a wise person once noted, always in motion is the future. It moved when Sidious wasn't looking. – Codes with Hammer Jan 15 '19 at 17:01
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Darth Vader doesn't think twice about using his destructive power of the Death Star to kill millions of people of Alderaan, yet he is supposed to get upset by seeing Luke get tortured? If Darth Vader was as evil as he was, there is a much higher chance that he'd get off on seeing the torture, than try to do anything about it. So, the emperor didn't think of it was going to be a bad idea, because it wasn't.

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VenomFangs
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    Except now it's his child, and Anakin has repeatedly proved his willingness to sacrifice everything to save his family. – TheRealSpartacus Apr 07 '15 at 14:15
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    I agree Anakin would yes, but not Darth Vader, there was a clear transformation. You are mistaking the whiny little kid for the fat guy with a respirator who likes to wear black :) – VenomFangs Apr 07 '15 at 16:16
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    Ehhh, it depends. He's never really been in a position where he faces the death of his family before then as Vader so it's hard to say whether he completely left that behind. – TheRealSpartacus Apr 07 '15 at 16:33
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    In the previous movie, Vader literally asked Luke to help him kill the Emperor so they could rule the Empire as father and son. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:10
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    More of a power play and sign of evil. To betray your instructor that you've studied under for so long, for your bastard child you did not communicate with their whole life and literally have a sword duel with? "I love you, forget the fact I tried to kill you..." – VenomFangs Apr 07 '15 at 18:23
  • @VenomFangs - Every time I watch A New Hope, Tarkin gives the order to destroy Alderaan. Vader just stands there wheezing. Vader doesn't even give the order to kill Leia - again, Tarkin does. In fact, in the original trilogy, discounting a pilot or two in A New Hope, all but one of the people Vader actually kills are Imperial officers. The only exception is the rebel he chokes in the opening scenes of A New Hope (after saying "If this is a consular ship, where are the ambassadors?"). Are you watching a different movie than me? – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:24
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    @VenomFangs Luke isn't a bastard. Bastards are children born out of wedlock. Anakin and Padme got married in episode II. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:25
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    Seems they changed the definition of bastard since I learned it. So instead of bastard, replace with orphan :) – VenomFangs Apr 07 '15 at 18:32
  • @VenomFangs Bastard: bas·tard ˈbastərd noun

    archaic derogatory a person born of parents not married to each other. synonyms: illegitimate child, child born out of wedlock; 2. informal an unpleasant or despicable person. "he lied to me, the bastard!"

    – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:34
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    But he was only an orphan after Vader died, so still not valid, how about "long-lost" or "estranged"? :P – TheRealSpartacus Apr 07 '15 at 19:16
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    @TheRealSpartacus But I thought Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father... – KSmarts Apr 07 '15 at 20:18
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    @KSmarts ...from a certain point of view. – Wad Cheber Apr 08 '15 at 01:37
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    Evil is not some kind of sliding scale of moral infractions, where level X means you enjoy watching your family tortured and level Y means you're willing to kill millions (and level Z, presumably, means you really appreciate a good cackle). Genocidal dictators throughout history have loved their families. – Phasma Felis May 19 '16 at 03:18
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I think it was the timing. He may have been more cautious at first, but after he had gotten started and Vader hadn't expressed any wish to spare Luke for a while, it became less likely that he would.

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    I'd be more inclined to believe this if Luke hadn't started screaming "FATHER! PLEASE! HELP ME!" That changes things, and Palpatine didn't react to it at all. – Wad Cheber Apr 07 '15 at 18:36
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    @WadCheber There is such a thing as getting caught up in the moment. – Atsby Apr 08 '15 at 00:09
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    see my new edit to the question: I just found out that the 2011 Blu-Ray edition has inserted audio of Vader saying "No", then SCREAMING "Nooooooooo!" while the Emperor is using his Force Lightning on Luke. This makes the Emperor's obliviousness even harder to explain. – Wad Cheber Apr 27 '15 at 00:38
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I don't know much, but maybe he was actually suicidal. Or else he thought he could take on two Skywalkers at once. Or he maybe had no plan B.

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  • Is there any evidence that he was suicidal or is this just a wild guess? – Null Jun 06 '15 at 04:18
  • @Null - Possibly trying to breach the Rule of Two is almost suicidal. Someone was going to die, and he must have known it. :) – Wad Cheber Jun 06 '15 at 16:22
  • @WadCheber Yes, someone was going to die, and he planned that to be either Luke or Vader (with the victor becoming his apprentice) just as he had done earlier with Dooku and Anakin. This question makes the same mistake, and a lot of the highly upvoted answers (including my own) make it clear that Palpatine was not suicidal. My answer even includes direct quotes from the movie as proof. – Null Jun 06 '15 at 16:49
  • @Null - I was kidding. – Wad Cheber Jun 06 '15 at 16:50
  • I didn't downvote this in the initial review, but now I have since someone has upvoted it and this is clearly wrong. – Null Jun 06 '15 at 16:50
  • @Null - Was the Emperor suicidal? Of course not. Should he have been wary of having Vader in the room while he killed VDer Jr.? Absolutely. http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/35799/what-was-emperors-plan-after-seducing-luke-to-the-dark-side/85739#85739 – Wad Cheber Jun 06 '15 at 16:53
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The biggest weakness one often possesses in the dark side is over-confidence. I'm sure the Emperor was so confident in his "absolute" control over Vader that it blinded him to the redeeming light that was still in him.

The Emperor felt Vader's conflict, but did he really think there was any good left in him?