Should a robber pray to be successful in robbing a bank?

Question

If a person plans to do something that they know is an aveira, should they daven to be successful?

I think one of the main things this question is exploring is how a person should relate to God vis-a-vis purposefully wrong actions.

That gemara is the main source of the Rashbatz brought in the answer below. — Gavriel, Jun 09 '16 at 19:08
It was originally in the Gemara but was removed at some point in our history. — Mark A., Sep 02 '16 at 20:39

score 3 · Accepted Answer · edited May 15 '18 at 14:53

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The Rashba”tz, in Magen Avot on Pirkei Avot, chapter 2¹ says that even a sinner have in mind “leshem shomayim” and brings the example of the thief who prays that Hashem should give him success in his breaking-in to the house and the oath that Saul took in the name of Hashem when he enquired of the familiar spirit in Ein Dor and another example.

הרשב"ץ‏‏ קובע שגם אדם חוטא יש לו לכוון לשם שמים, וכדוגמה הוא מביא את סיפור הגנב המתפלל לה' שיצליח בפריצה שלו, ואת השבועה שנשבע שאול בשם ה' כאשר ביקר אצל בעלת האוב בעין דור, שמדומה במדרש תנחומא לאישה נואפת שנשבעת בחיי בעלה

It seems therefore that one should daven for success in an aveira, amazing as it sounds.

^{1. Found in a footnote to the Wikipedia article on Aveirah Lishmo}

edited May 15 '18 at 14:53

Isaac Moses

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answered Jun 07 '16 at 21:16

Avrohom Yitzchok

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Slight misrepresentation here. He is specifically referring to someone who due to extraneous circumstances must sin, such committing an act of stealing or witchcraft in order to save their life. In that situation one should make sure that they're 'sin' is done with good intent. – user6591 Jun 08 '16 at 01:10
@user6591 Your comment clarifies this scenario a lot. Perhaps you should move your comment into the above answer? I think several readers, including myself, were confused with the premise of the original question. I can't imagine any rav / chacham encouraging a sin. – DanF Jun 08 '16 at 14:10
@DanF I think an edit like that would be better performed by Avraham Yitzchok. Also of note IIRC correctly, Tosafos mentions that when someone must steal in order to save their life, it is only allowed with the precondition that they have intention of paying the owner back. – user6591 Jun 08 '16 at 14:14
@user6591 Re last sentence - What if someone is too poor to pay back the owner? If I infer correctly from the above, a poor starving person may not steal in order to save his life? That doesn't sound right. If you can refer me to the location of the Tosfot, perhaps, we can save a good bit of exchanging comments. Chag Same'ach.. – DanF Jun 08 '16 at 16:11
@DanF I would assume he would be allowed to as long as he intends to make enough money to pay it back. But I'll try to get that source for you. – user6591 Jun 08 '16 at 16:13
@user6591 I am happy to edit in your point - but please can you give me a source first? – Avrohom Yitzchok Jun 08 '16 at 16:15
@DanF see the sugya with Dovid Hamelech in Bava Kama 60b with the explanation of rosh ch6#12 and other rishonim on the sugya like Rashba and Meiri. Tosafos is the least explicit but is also referred to in achronim as meaning this. (Rashi seems to say it is not allowed to steal even with paying back which is hard to understand considering its not one of the three chamuros, this is addressed in various achronim). – user6591 Jun 08 '16 at 16:34
Avraham Yitzchok see above. But that was a secondary point. My main point was that your source is only discussing a life saving situation. Not that some scam artist living the highlife should be thinking that his actions are lisheim shomayim. – user6591 Jun 08 '16 at 16:35
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If you look in the Rashbatz himself you'll see that he does discuss someone doing an aveirah with no positive objective in mind and says that even he should pray to God to be successful in doing the aveirah. His source is gemara brachos 63a (IIRC). I don't think the original post has to be edited at all. – Gavriel Jun 09 '16 at 13:01
The quote in wikipedia doesn't say to pray for success in an aveirah, just to mention and be cognizant of God and try to view it as לשם שמים somehow. – Jay Apr 23 '17 at 18:25
@user6591 do you have the source for this?? I've been looking for it... "Slight misrepresentation here. He is specifically referring to someone who due to extraneous circumstances must sin, such committing an act of stealing or witchcraft in order to save their life. In that situation one should make sure that they're 'sin' is done with good intent". – user6591 Jun 8 '16 at 1:10 – Tamar Schwab May 15 '18 at 12:17
@Tamar click on the link provided. It seems quite explicitly quoted. מגן אבות" לרשב"ץ, פרקי אבות פרק ב': "והעבירה בכל עניין היא מגונה, אבל אם יצטרך אדם לעבור על דעת קונו מפני צורך השעה, יתכוין בזה לעשות רצון אביו שבשמים... – user6591 May 15 '18 at 12:55
The quote there continues ואמרו שם שזו היא פרשה קטנה שכל גופי תורה תלוויין בה, וזה יותר חזק מהראשון, שאפילו אין באותה עבירה שום נדנוד מצווה, לא מפני כן ישכח את השם עושהו ויזכירנו בפיו, ויהרהר בעבירה ההיא איזה עניין שיהיה לשם שמים ואפילו בדרך רחוקה it seems quite clear that this person who is doing the aveira has to come up with a positive justification (not hard for most sinners) no matter how far fetched, and that will be his lishma. Perhaps this is what Gavriel was referring to in his comments. However this precludes someone who sins with no possible justification. – user6591 May 15 '18 at 13:02

score 0 · Answer 2 · answered May 15 '18 at 12:49

There is a Baal Shem Tov story about a robber who got brachos from the Besht. When questioned about why he associated with the thief, the Besht replied that the commandment "make for youurself a rabbi" (pirkei avot) was not only given to the rigeous. Even the wicked need rabbis.

Should a robber pray to be successful in robbing a bank?

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