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How can a nozir fulfill the mitzvah of drinking four cups of wine at the passover seder?

p.s. It is not a riddle. My son asked me this question, and I don't know what to answer him.

jake
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jutky
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5 Answers5

10

If he can indeed drink wine for this purpose (as per the sources cited in WAF's answer and the comments there), then that's that.

Otherwise, though: there are opinions that even for the Four Cups one can use chamar medinah (a beverage used as the national drink of importance, e.g., beer or mead) - Rema to Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 483:1. Now, a nazir is permitted to drink those; he's prohibited only to consume grape products. So he might be able to use chamar medinah for his Four Cups.

alicht
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Alex
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  • אין דנין אפשר משאי אפשר. See T'shuvos Rashba vol.1, 238. – jake Jun 07 '11 at 00:20
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    I've heard mead is recommended. – Shalom Jun 07 '11 at 01:16
  • @jake: but here it's not a matter of personal preference (מפני ששונאו או שמזיקו) where he can somehow manage to do it; it's (presumably) an issur on him. – Alex Jun 07 '11 at 04:47
  • Yes, but his point is that even though one may technically be yotzei with matza instead of wine, that is only where wine is not available. It does not necessarily mean that one who has wine but prefers not to drink it may also do so. The same may apply to one who has wine but may not drink it. – jake Jun 07 '11 at 05:20
  • @jake - Wouldn't that imply that one may not drink anything other than wine for Kiddush/Havdalah, even if one is a recovering alcoholic or it's the Nine Days? – Seth J Aug 31 '11 at 17:39
  • @SethJ, Yes, it sounds like so long as wine is available, it must be used. Or at the very least, we cannot say that it may be neglected in favor of some second-tier obligation-fulfiller like chamar medina or the like. – jake Aug 31 '11 at 21:01
  • I don't believe it's correct that someone can't use grape juice if they are a recovering alcoholic, or Hammar Medina if it's the Nine Days, based on "Ein Danin Efshar". Pretty much everyone holds that Hammar Medina may be used during the Nine Days (as discussed here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/2180/5). Do you have a source saying otherwise? I'm sure there must be other examples, short of physical illness (although alcoholism can be classified as such), in which although wine might be available, something else might be far more preferable, not having anything to do with personal taste. – Seth J Sep 01 '11 at 12:06
  • (To be clear, I'm asking for a source not specifically about the Nine Days, but suggesting that we are supposed to interpret "Ein Danin" as broadly as to say that you must use wine unless none is available.) – Seth J Sep 01 '11 at 12:13
  • @SethJ, You are likely correct. However, there is no way to know for sure how "ein danin" applies from just that t'shuva from the Rashba. In fact, it may apply differently to different applications (wine on Pesach vs. wine during nine days). – jake Sep 06 '11 at 14:28
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It is a 'מחלוקת ריב''ן ותוס in .נזיר ד. Rivan says that being that person is already חייב in קידוש before he accepts נזירות, he still has to make קידוש. Tos' say that the part of קידוש that is on wine is דרבנן, and therefore he would not make קידוש.

If the 4 cups are דאורייתא, it has the same מחלוקת as the above. If it is דרבנן, all would agree that a נזיר would not drink.

WAF
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moses
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  • והרי מושבע ועומד ב) עליו מהר סיני הוא. דכתיב זכור את יום השבת לקדשו זוכרהו על היין אין לי אלא בכניסתו ביציאתו מנין ת"ל כו' (פסחים דף קו) וקי"ל דנשבע לבטל את המצוה פטור דלא אתיא שבועה ומבטלה מצוה וא"ת הא תנן (נדרים דף טז. שבועות דף כה.) חומר בנדרים מבשבועות שכן הנדר חל על דבר מצוה כדבר הרשות דאיש כי ידור נדר לה' כתיב אפילו במידי דלה' ג) נמי לא קשיא דהא לא הוי אלא כגון דאמר ישיבת סוכה עלי דאוסר אותה עליו ואין מאכילין את האדם דבר האסור לו אבל אם אמר קונם שלא אשב בסוכה אין בדבריו כלום והכי מסקינן לה בנדרים בפרק ואלו מותרין (דף טז:): – moses Mar 24 '13 at 18:41
  • that was the rivan – moses Mar 24 '13 at 18:42
  • קדוש היום דאורייתא ואיך תחול עליו נזירות וקשה דאדרבה להכי איצטריך קרא מיותר לומר דחייל עליה נזירות ועוד קשה מאי משני בתר הכי כגון שנשבע לשתות וחזר ונדר בנזיר דאתיא נזירות וחייל אשבועה מ"מ תקשי לו הרי מושבע ועומד מהר סיני כלומר דאין מושבע ועומד גדול מזה שנשבע לשתות ועוד קשה דקדוש היום לאו דאורייתא הוא דנהי נמי דכתיב זכור ודרשינן זוכרהו על היין אסמכתא הוא לכ"נ לר"ת דגרסינן בתמיה וכי מושבע ועומד מהר סיני כלומר ל"ל קרא מיותר לאסור יין מצוה וכי מושבע וכו' דנהי דקידוש היום דאורייתא על היין לאו דאורייתא ב] דזוכרהו על היין אסמכתא והשתא משני כגון שנשבע לשתות וקמ"ל קרא יתירא דחייל עליה אע"ג שנשבע לשתות – moses Mar 24 '13 at 18:42
  • that was tosafos – moses Mar 24 '13 at 18:43
  • @WAF why the rollback? – msh210 Jan 03 '14 at 15:58
  • @msh210 Shoot. I was hoping nobody would see that. I wrote that all under false pretenses, and didn't realize until after submitting. – WAF Jan 03 '14 at 18:43
  • Try removing jargon. – mevaqesh Apr 30 '17 at 05:28
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Interesting question!

This article, on a site which I've never heard of before today, lists many of the standard sources and their silence on this question, and adds that it is equally askable regarding kidush on shabas. It then concludes with a suggestion (in the name of a chain of Rebbes from Lubavitch) that since mitzvos lav lehanos nitnu - the commandments were not given for derivation of pleasure - the wine that a nazir drinks to fulfill his obligation on the night of Pesach is not included in the prohibition against his [pleasurable] drinking of grape products.

WAF
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    I'm not sure it's the same for Shabbat; you can make kiddush on non-wine if necessary, but Pesach specifically calls for wine. – Monica Cellio Jun 06 '11 at 18:53
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    Plus, wouldn't that assume he only drinks the absolute minimum Shiur required to be yotzei? – yydl Jun 06 '11 at 19:00
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    @WAF, the same author (R. Yehudah Leib Groner, one of the Rebbe zt"l's secretaries) revisits this in the next issue of the journal, and brings various sources that seem to indicate that a nazir indeed may not drink wine for the Arba Kosos. – Alex Jun 06 '11 at 21:55
  • @MonicaCellio Using substances other than wine is the exception to the rule stated by the [g'mara](http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%97%D7%99%D7%9D%D7%A7%D7%95_%D7%90)_ to mention shabas using wine. Thus, the original question "how can a nozir fulfil..." could have equally been asked, as pointed out by that article, about kidush, to which the answer could have been "by substituting other foods", but on which the major sources would still have been surprisingly silent. – WAF Jun 06 '11 at 22:00
  • @yydl I'm not sure. It would depend if "mitzvos lav lehanos nitnu" means that hana'a and the doing of a mitzva cannot coexist (in which case no matter the quantity of wine, its fulfillment of the mitzva obviates the concern) or that hana'a may not be derived from the mitzva action (in which case he would have to stop after finishing the minimum) I guess. – WAF Jun 06 '11 at 22:05
  • @Alex Hey! And it's even a more or less explicit Ramba"m in a couple places (cited there). There goes that hava amina. – WAF Jun 06 '11 at 22:09
  • @WAF, apparently it's still not so simple. Sefer HaPardes (Rashi) says that a nazir ought not to make kiddush on wine (he should use bread instead), but that if he did so, he has to drink the wine. – Alex Jun 06 '11 at 22:17
  • @Alex I didn't mean to imply it was an open and shut case, just that I missed a much stronger and more obvious answer. – WAF Jun 06 '11 at 22:26
  • @WAF, I don't understand all the confusion. After looking up the Rambam (Nezirus 7:11), it seems pretty clear to me that a nazir may not drink the four cups. Indeed, it is brought in the subsequent article that Alex linked. – jake Jun 06 '11 at 23:37
  • @jake Nothing serious. I just missed a halacha m'foreshes in Ramba"m, which is clearly his opinion but, as @Alex pointed out, not the only opinion. – WAF Jun 07 '11 at 00:15
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    @WAF, That which Rambam brings that a nazir may not make kiddush nor havdala on wine is a gemara (Nazir 3b). I don't believe anyone argues. – jake Jun 07 '11 at 00:37
  • @jake: apparently Sefer HaPardes does, as above. – Alex Jun 07 '11 at 04:48
  • @Alex, Sefer Hapardes does not argue that a nazir may not make kiddush on wine; just that if he did, he must drink some of it. But this itself is only because the nazir must make kiddush in the first place since it is a biblical mitzva, and since he made kiddush on wine, now it becomes a problem d'oraisa if he does not drink it. But the 4 cups on pesach are themselves only rabbinical; the nazir would not even come to the point where he would have to drink them according to the sefer hapardes (except the first cup, which is that of kiddush). – jake Jun 07 '11 at 05:30
  • @jake first cup is only for sure biblical if the seder is on shabbat. – Double AA Mar 05 '13 at 05:40
  • Why can't you say that the aseh of arba kosos or kiddush should be dochech the lav of not drinking wine? – DonielF Mar 26 '17 at 18:31
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Yerushalmi Nazir 6:5 quotes the opinion of R' Yossi HaGelili that a Nazir may not drink Ma'aser Sheini wine. He derives this from Bamidbar 6:3, which says both "wine" and "strong drink," which he finds repetitious (as wine is a strong drink). He therefore learns that the repetition is "to make wine for a Mitzvah like optional wine." So, no, a Nazir would not be able to have four cups of wine. He would be able to have four cups of a chamar medinah, though, as Alex noted.

DonielF
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The question, as asked, is simple to answer: Passover is a command (Le 23:5-8) while a Nazir's vow, was a mere personal vow. No Israelite had the authority to make a vow that supplants a command. The better question is, was Samson required to abstain from all wine, including Passover wine? It seems the answer, in this case, would be that Samson had to abstain, since he received a direct command with a specific commission (Jg 13:3-5).

Michael Ben Zehabe
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