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Are there sources that say women do not have to cover elbows? Because I've seen Orthodox women not covering them and I want to be able to say that there are sources that support their actions.

msh210
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Matthew Miller
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    Just out of curiosity, why not ask the question in reverse? "Are there sources that say women have to cover their elbows? Because I've seen Orthodox women covering them and I want to know if there are sources saying their actions are necessary." – Seth J Oct 03 '12 at 19:09

1 Answers1

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The best development I've seen on this is Rabbi Yehuda Herzl Henkin's Contemporary Tseni'ut. It appeared in Tradition 37:3 (2003), as well as its own book. The Tradition article is available online, paid subscription required. Here's his conclusion, as relates to your question:

It emerges from Rashi, Yerushalmi and Korban ha-Eda that peritsut in exposure of the upper arms comes not from the arms themselves, but from the body being visible via the arms; this, then, is what Sefer Rokeah means by zero’oteha megulot, the same language as zero’oteha halutsot in the Yerushalmi. This is a powerful source for limmud zekhut in behalf of otherwise modest women whose sleeves do not reach to their elbows.

A typology can be established, then, as follows:
1. sleeveless dresses—forbidden by all opinions, as body can be seen.
2. short sleeves, loose—forbidden by all opinions if body can be seen.
3. short sleeves, tight—body cannot be seen, but forbidden if most of the upper arm is uncovered (rubo ke-kulo)
4. sleeves half-way to elbow—forbidden because of tefah meguleh, room for limmud zekhut
5. sleeves to within a tefah of the elbow—minimum permitted
6. sleeves to elbow—recommended
7. sleeves to below elbow—first level humra
8. sleeves to wrists—second level humra.

This does not supplant any communal or familial minhag.

Shalom
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  • can you elaborate on what "body being visible via the arms" means. Are you saying that the arm is considered the body, so if you see the arm you are seeing the body? Or are you saying that if the arm is uncovered, some of the body will also be uncovered, which is a problem? – Menachem Jun 02 '11 at 21:06
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    @Menachem, if I understand R' Henkin correctly, the latter. – Shalom Jun 03 '11 at 01:57
  • It sounds like if a women raises her arm with short sleeves, it might make it possible for you to look through the sleeve and see the body(torso) Imagine a loose sleeve not a tight one. – avi Aug 18 '11 at 08:58
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    If you have not seen a woman with short, loose sleeves, you obviously don't understand the issue here. If the sleeve is short and loose, it is possible that the skin of the woman's chest, under her armpit would be visible, and therefore not tsanuah. This would certainly occur if she has to raise her arms. I hope that clarifies it for you, Menachem. – Madeleine Aug 18 '11 at 04:36
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    If the reason for covering the upper arms is to keep the body from being seen, then why is it still forbidden to wear TIGHT short sleeves (where the body can't be seen) but that are still so short as to leave the majority of the arm uncovered? I should think that if the only reason for covering the upper arms is so that the body isn't exposed than it should be sufficient halachically to wear tight short sleeves that reach less than half way down the upper arm, because since they are tight the body is covered even when the arms are raised. Please explain Thank you –  Oct 03 '12 at 19:08
  • @Esther, but to answer your question, if the issue is seeing the body via the loose opening of the sleeve, then wearing a tight sleeve will suffice to prevent that. Unless by "body" the author meant the skin under the sleeve. You still can't see the skin under a tight sleeve, but then I hear where you're coming from. If it's a Din (law) in seeing the shape of the arm, a tight sleeve doesn't help (similar to the problem of pants - even though they cover the opening left by a skirt, the shape is visible and can be suggestive). – Seth J Oct 03 '12 at 19:16
  • @Esther: good question, this takes a more careful reading of Rabbi Henkin: "the standard Talmudic interpretation is that the upper arm should be covered, and that's what should be followed. But there is an alternative reading that it was only an issue of torso visibility, so those who didn't cover to the elbow shouldn't be condemned too badly as they were in line with this reading." Thus: short, loose sleeves -- "prohibited by all opinions." Short, tight sleeves -- prohibited by the majority opinion. – Shalom Oct 03 '12 at 19:41
  • I have been seeing more women's blouses/sweaters with cut outs ( https://www.pinterest.com/pin/502503270903316427/ ) including large ones in the forearm, or around the elbow, making a short sleeve above and a sleeve BELOW the elbow, the a good sized uncovered piece in the elbow area. I wonder how that plays out. – rosends Feb 08 '18 at 17:12
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    @rosends if I recall from Rabbi Henkin's piece, he writes explicitly that "within a few inches of the elbow" does not allow you to go past the elbow and then cut out a few-inch window. – Shalom Feb 09 '18 at 01:47