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I read here about certain Jewish sects prescribing face veil. Is there, in fact, a rule requiring or encouraging covering the faces of women in presence of unrelated men? If so, what is the source for this rule?

msh210
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knowit
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  • I don't know of any (I know of one face covering -- male, and other kinds of covering for females). What prompted this? Do you have any particular case or text in mind? – rosends Mar 05 '13 at 17:23
  • http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=26472&st=&pgnum=49&hilite= – Gershon Gold Mar 05 '13 at 17:37
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    the source NPR article answers your question "Keren claims to have seen an image from 400 years ago of Jewish women covered from head to toe, but Frenkel says experts believe there are no historical references to back up her claims." – rosends Mar 05 '13 at 18:02
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    I've simplified this down to a question about Jewish law and the source for it. A separate history question could be asked, especially if this question's answer starts with "yes." (@SethJ) – Isaac Moses Mar 05 '13 at 18:36
  • BTW a bride obviously does cover her face - so if you see such a portrait you have to make sure it's not a wedding portrait. – Ariel Mar 05 '13 at 19:42
  • @Ariel, in most cases that shouldn't be too difficult. – Seth J Mar 05 '13 at 19:50
  • @SethJ Not necessarily. People didn't always wear white dresses, and there is not necessarily a chuppah either (since she puts on the veil before going to the chuppah). – Ariel Mar 05 '13 at 19:53
  • A bride covers her face briefly before she is married, and the veil is often placed there by her father - this negates the element of the question about "unrelated" men. – rosends Mar 05 '13 at 20:30
  • @Ali you are concerned because experts "believe" that there is no source. But that's not how law develops. There has to be a source (other than a claim of having seen a picture) to drive the creation of practice. My wedding plate has a woman with her face covered on it because the artist was no good at noses. This is not a historical source for law. – rosends Mar 05 '13 at 20:32
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    "And he thought her to be a prostitute because she covered her face." (Sefer Bershit) – Hacham Gabriel Aug 04 '13 at 15:40

2 Answers2

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This sect is referred to by many today with a mixture of amusement, frustration, and annoyance. Most will tell you that they are bringing the rules of modesty to an unprecedented extreme for which there is no source nor Jewish tradition.

However, a while ago on the Seforim Blog, Marc Shapiro addressed this sect (which he calls the "Jewish Taliban Women"), and brings many sources that recommend or praise the use of such full-body veil (burqa-like) coverings. I will not reproduce his words here, but his sources include the Jerusalem Talmud (as interpreted by its commentaries), R' Baruch Epstein (1860-1941), and R' Joseph Messas (1892-1974). Additionally, Shapiro lists some contemporary rabbis who have written/spoken in favor of the shawls worn by these women.

jake
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I have seen pics from the 1900s and even late 1800s with Jewish women having a hijab type head covering, not niqab

I am pretty sure RaMbaM said for a girl to cover her hair at age 3 because that is when she is sent to the market and is in the public's view. Once married she needs to put a rodid on top of the mitpahath. (Hilchos Ishus Perek 13 & 24)

I also have pics to display to show as examples, but that will all be tommorow.

Adám
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MoriDowidhYa3aqov
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  • There's a bunch of jargon here that needs to be translated. – Isaac Moses Mar 06 '13 at 15:10
  • http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/516997047/name/Israel+1917+kotel.jpg I assume these are ashkenazic women – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 16:23
  • Unless I'm mistaken, you can't see any womens' faces, covered or uncovered, in that picture. – Isaac Moses Mar 06 '13 at 16:26
  • Browser keeps crashing, I can't link so many pics at once at my college's computer I am assuming. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 16:29
  • http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/1267927390/name/Uzbekistan+1888+family.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/425154996/name/Israel+1925+Kotel+women.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/1302048553/name/Israel+1920+Women+at+the+Kotel.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/1947357557/name/Israel+1901+Devout+Jewish+women+at+the+kotel.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/207156118/name/Israel+1903+Women+at+the+kotel.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/516997047/name/Israel+1917+kotel.jpg – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 16:33
  • http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/52038322/name/Uzbekistan+1870+The+wedding+of+Barukh+and+Khanna+mothers+to+their+side.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/1659596570/name/Uzbekistan+1870+Signing+the+ketuba%2C.jpg http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16813213/sn/1524147298/name/Israel+1904+temani+Shiloah+Village.jpg http://jwa.org/system/files/imagecache/default_full/mediaobjects/Turkey-4.jpg from right to left is a muslim woman, bulgarian woman, jewish woman from wearing clothing from the turkish and greek soloniki area. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 16:34
  • I got class now I will be back with RaMbaM later. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 16:37
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    I did not look at all of the pictures linked to in your comments, above, DhoweedYaAgov, but certainly many of them do not show covered faces, which was AFAICT the question. – msh210 Mar 06 '13 at 19:12
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    Thats the point, I said it is hijab not niqab. Hijab is just head covering and side of face. Niqab is the small cloth put on the face. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 19:45
  • Halacha 17:Jewish women should not walk in the marketplace with uncovered hair. [This applies to] both unmarried and married women. Similarly, a woman should not walk in the street with her son following her. [This is] a decree, [enacted so that] her son not be abducted and she follow after him to bring him back and she be molested by wicked people who took hold of him as a caprice. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 21:23
  • יז לֹא יְהַלְּכוּ בְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל פְּרוּעֵי רֹאשׁ בַּשּׁוּק, אַחַת פְּנוּיָה וְאַחַת אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ. וְלֹא תֵלֵךְ אִשָּׁה בַּשּׁוּק, וּבְנָהּ אַחֲרֶיהָ--גְּזֵרָה שֶׁמֶּא יִתְפְּסוּ בְּנָהּ וְתֵלֵךְ אַחֲרָיו לְהַחְזִירוֹ, וְיִתְעַלְּלוּ בָּהּ הָרְשָׁעִים שֶׁתְּפָסוּהוּ דֶּרֶךְ שְׂחוֹק. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 21:24
  • http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vD7pLOvOv9k/T01VcolF0gI/AAAAAAAAAFY/cvCZfuK9wJo/s1600/Different+head+coverings.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OPjPqA7GizM/S-mupOo45YI/AAAAAAAAAA8/eAaa6I_272A/s1600/%C5%BBYSKI.jpg teimani women/girls. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 21:44
  • Mori Gafih, in halihoth teimom perek malbushei noshim page 253, says that teimonim never wore clothing made of material which looks like the material the arabs used to wear. He also says the women wore a rodid and mitpahHath at home as well as outside, as shown in the picture above. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 06 '13 at 22:48
  • @DhoweedYaAgov why don't you try to massage those links (or some of them) into the body of your answer? – Seth J Mar 07 '13 at 01:57
  • I don't know which ones you want, so I give you permission to do as you wish. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 07 '13 at 02:10
  • @DhoweedYaAgov, can you explain how this answer answers the question at all? It doesn't seem to: recall that the question asks for a rule (and source therefor) about covering faces. If this answer doesn't answer the question at all, then feel free to delete it yourself, or expect that it will get deleted. – msh210 Mar 07 '13 at 07:39
  • Because I didn't have enough points to comment in the above post regarding people saying they never saw pics/women in real life wearing such head coverings, I thought I would post pics to show that jewish women from different countries did cover there hair in a hijab style. There is no specific rule to cover the hair with a certain cloth in the Mishneh Torah or Gemoroh itself, but by looking at history of how jewish women wore their clothes, we can figure out what it means to cover your hair. – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Mar 07 '13 at 17:09