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Does anyone know when the switch the matrilineal descent took place? I've seen other information about the potential impetus, but when did it become so? Was there even a switch?

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הראל
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    I won't provide a full answer, because I don't believe that we should be following matrilineal descent (see my post on it here: http://wp.me/p2MerI-4C) and I don't know exactly when the shift occurred. But some people argue that it happened (or at least started to happen) in biblical times. See Ezra 10:3. I would respond that that is a misunderstanding of the verse. – A Blue Thread Feb 06 '13 at 02:16
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    Is this a duplicate of the question linked to in this question? It certainly will have the answers the older question currently has, and the questions are awfully similar though not identical. To the asker here: Did you read the answers there, especially http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/7986? It seems to amply answer your question. – msh210 Feb 06 '13 at 02:23
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    Your question assumes that it is accepted fact there was such a switch. It is not. Perhaps you should quote those who do assume that, and specify your question is according to those opinions. – HodofHod Feb 06 '13 at 04:37
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    @ABlueThread Please note that this site discusses normative Orthodox Halacha. It may not be appropriate for you to express your Karaite beliefs here. – Shraga Feb 06 '13 at 05:34
  • @Shraga this raises an interesting question, actually. It has been discussed in the past to what extent this site should be pluralistic with regards to conservative, reform, and other modern sects that depart from our mesorah, but karaism self-defines as being completely disconnected from our mesorah in the first place. What has it to do with Jewish law and tradition any more than any other "Abrahamic faith"? – yoel Feb 06 '13 at 06:58
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    @Shraga Ummm...that is not true according to the current meta consensus. You should check it out and contribute if you like. – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 07:03
  • @DoubleAA Can you give me a link to the relevant discussion? I don't see it on the meta page. Thanks – Shraga Feb 06 '13 at 07:05
  • @yoel What is "our" mesorah? This is not the place to be having this discussion though. Please bring it up on meta if you want. – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 07:05
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    @Shraga For starters: http://meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/469/759 http://meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/292/759 http://meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1298/759 http://meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1266/759 – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 07:08
  • @DoubleAA are you being rhetorical? – yoel Feb 06 '13 at 07:08
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    @yoel To bring it up on Meta? No. That your entire mesorah might not be the official one of Mi Yodeya (because I don't know of such an official policy)? No. That Karaitism has more similarities with Judaism than eg. Islam? No. You can see the beginnings of a discussion about Karaitism in the comments to this question. Also note that comments are generally much more flexible than posts, so even if you reject a Karaite post, you may not reject a Karaite comment. – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 07:11
  • @DoubleAA your comment about comments being freer ground is well put. As for whether "my" mesorah is the "official one", come on. Surely we have to draw the line somewhere, and groups condemned as heretical by rishonim probably qualify as on the other side of it. That said, I don't know that it's worth a meta post - as far as I can tell, it is not a real problem at present. – yoel Feb 06 '13 at 07:14
  • @yoel Probably, but see that linked question which is a question not a comment. There are variations in mesora which are currently accepted here, so I didn't know if you meant 'our' like what is accepted on Mi Yodeya or 'our' like mine-which-is-also-Mi-Yodeya's. – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 07:17
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    @DoubleAA I agree that "this site discusses normative Orthodox Halacha" may be a topic under discussion. Nevertheless "those who base their lives on Jewish law and tradition" should clearly exclude Karaite teachings which doesn't accept the validity of torah she'baal peh. – Shraga Feb 06 '13 at 07:19
  • @Shraga See my above discussion with yoel. I agree that your logic is quite reasonable, but there is no official policy on the matter that I'm aware of. Again, this all applies to posts. Comments are held to a much weaker standard. – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 07:22
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    @DoubleAA to be totally clear, by mesorah I meant the oral tradition that Judaism holds to have been received at Sinai and developed by a chain of rabbis reaching from Moshe Rabbenu to our day. In this regard, the modern day sects, while holding heretical views from an orthodox perspective, are at least offshoots of this mesorah. Karaism self-defines as not a part of the aforementioned tradition. – yoel Feb 06 '13 at 07:29
  • @Shraga, the point made elsewhere (I think?) is, "is Karaism any different, with respect to acceptance of TShB"P, than Reform?" Meaning, although we assume a general acceptance of "tradition" in the Q&A here, does Karaism deviate more than Reform does? One of our diamond mods is Reform, in case you weren't aware. – Seth J Feb 06 '13 at 15:26
  • @Shraga, also note that I objected to a question about current Karaite practice on this site because it did not conform to my interpretation of "Jewish law and tradition" in the FAQ. My previous comment is to balance the discussion and ask if you think we should exclude Reform as well as Karaite participants, or if we should exclude neither, or for some justification to exclude one and not the other. – Seth J Feb 06 '13 at 15:27
  • @SethJ as I said above, for me the question is not one of deviance but of relationship to mesorah. Reform is probably less traditional than Karaism, as the latter at least presumably accepts (written) Torah miSinai. However, reform unmistakably and undeniably branches off of traditional Judaism, and can be defined in its terms - it does not regard Halacha as binding - whereas Karaism does not regard Halacha as being legitimate or something that existed in the first place. – yoel Feb 06 '13 at 15:54
  • Is this where I'm supposed to ask, "Who is a wise man?"

    I did not seek to set off a storm of comments. As I stated in my profile: "I'm actually here just to learn more about Rabbanite Judaism and offer insights from a Karaite Jew where it seems fitting." That's one reason I didn't offer a "Karaite" answer to the question.

    Despite my difference of opinion with Rabbanism, I have a tremendous respect for the faith and devotion of Rabbanites and I believe that Karaites have a lot to learn from Rabbanites. I've written about this many times at my blog.

     – A Blue Thread Feb 06 '13 at 16:38
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    @SethJ FTR we don't want to exclude any given participant, just possibly certain content. For instance, the comment in question above actually discusses when the Rabbanites switched to matrilineal descent (which is totally on topic), even if also mentioning the Karaite view. – Double AA Feb 06 '13 at 17:34
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    @SethJ I don't think any participants should be excluded. What I think should be excluded is content (whether questions, answers or comments) which doesn't adhere to the "Jewish law and tradition" as mentioned in the FAQ. "One of our diamond mods is Reform" and I think said mod deserves tremendous respect for being willing to moderate a site which deals overwhelmingly with a non-reform POV of judaism. Kudos. – Shraga Feb 06 '13 at 18:49
  • @Shraga, ok, but to ban a comment that not only contains a benign (non-argumentative) reference to the commenter's belief, but a source he's heard in support of the mainstream Orthodox belief, seems out of character for the site. IMO. – Seth J Feb 08 '13 at 03:26
  • @SethJ Which "mainstream Orthodox belief" are you referring to? – Shraga Feb 10 '13 at 07:15
  • @shraga matrilineal descent. His original comment, to which you objected, was, "I think it's wrong, but here's where some people say it has support." – Seth J Feb 10 '13 at 15:29
  • My 2 cents, as someone deeply interested in Jewish history and Jewish life. By defining his site as being about "orthodox Halakha" you are excluding many people who are very knowledgable and passionate about the subject but have different views. This is very dangerous and will only help to make this site more or less marginal, representative of only a sub segment of the discourse surrounding Jewish issues. – Jason May 03 '13 at 06:20

2 Answers2

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While Jewish law applies patrilineal descent to other nations (Yevamos 78b), Nachmanides writes that matrilineal descent applied to the Jewish people from the time of Avraham and onwards (Commentary to Vayikra 24:10). This is justified by the existence of some degree of Israelite nationhood from the time of the Patriarchs, which is suggested by the Talmud's reference to Esav as legally an Israelite (Kiddushin 18a).

However, Nachmanides also cites the French rabbis as being of the opinion that the switch from patrilineal to matrilineal descent occurred at the time of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. This opinion interprets the Midrash (Sifra on Emor, 14:1), which writes that the "son of the Israelite woman" converted, as implying that anyone born before the giving of the Torah who was not a member of the Children of Israel via patrilineal descent needed to convert. This is different from the conversion-type rituals that the other Israelites performed at Mount Sinai (Kerisus 9a), which formalized their de facto status.

Double AA
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Fred
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  • Pre-Sinai, it was a matter of tribal identity, thus patrilineal. (Just as the laws pertaining to "Edomites" or "Moabite"s are patrilineal.) Thus the Jews had to keep Jewish names. Sinai -- i.e. the Torah as we know it -- changed all of that. A Jew is a different category of person, thus matrilineal; and what keeps us connected is the commandments, not the culture per se (hence no requirement on the names). – Shalom Feb 06 '13 at 13:14
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The only three good examples I can think of are Abraham, who's mother could not have been Jewish because technically Judaism did not exist before the covenant. Even if Abraham's mother converted, would it have counted, since she was not Jewish at the time of birth? Second, Zipporah, Moses' wife, was a Midianite, not a Hebrew. While the children of Moses were not chosen as his successor, it wasn't because of their mother, but because they idled instead of studying Torah. Joseph also married out of the tribe, to an Egyptian woman, who was certainly not Jewish. However, Ephraim and Menassah became to lead two of the tribes of Israel, so they must have certainly been considered Jewish? I know the Mishna is the beginning of matrilineality, but where does it originate from or gather justification from? I'm not trying to deny matrilineality (although by that standard I am not a Jew), but play the devil's advocate and seek some answers to these examples. I don't have enough rep to comment yet :(

Ely Eastman
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