10

I have not witnessed enough test cases to statistically verify anything, but I have heard various Chassidic Rebbes make b'rachos and daven out loud, and without fail, they mispronounce a majority of the words. I'm not talking about using a different pronunciation scheme (havara) for the vowels and letters (which is of course not mispronunciation), but mil'eil / mil'ra mistakes. This is in contrast to the many other non-Chassidic rabbis whom I've heard who do not make nearly as many such mistakes.

I can think of the following options to explain this:

  1. Chassidic Rebbes are ignorant of grammar, and simply don't know the correct pronunciation.
  2. They are purposely mispronouncing a majority of the words they say, even though they know how they really should be pronounced.
  3. I'm wrong. Chassidic Rebbes use normal pronunciation, and the ones that I've seen happen to have been the exception.

Now, here are the respective problems with those options:

  1. Why would they be ignorant of grammar? These Rebbes are, for the most part, known to be great Talmidei Chachamim, proficient in Torah knowledge. What kind of talmidei chachamim don't know basic Hebrew grammar? (Most siddurim even show which words are mil'ra and mil'eil, and even which sh'va's are na or nach.) And even if they are, for some reason, ignorant of grammar, why should they be any more so than the non-Chassidic rabbis?
  2. Why? I can't think of any reasonable explanation for this.
  3. This is in my opinion unlikely, but possible.

Does anyone know which of the options above (or another that I overlooked) is the correct explanation for this phenomenon? Please explain.

Double AA
  • 98,894
  • 6
  • 250
  • 713
jake
  • 28,533
  • 2
  • 72
  • 159
  • 1
    Just to point out that the question is compounded in the many instances where milra/mileil mistakes can change the meaning. – Double AA Aug 15 '12 at 21:13
  • Is this specifically about mil'ra/mil'eil, or do you have other issues in mind too? – Monica Cellio Aug 15 '12 at 21:28
  • @MonicaCellio, This is mostly about mil'ra/mil'eil, because even though other details (e.g. sh'va na/nach) are also lacking, in that respect they are not significantly worse than other rabbis and laymen, in my experience. – jake Aug 15 '12 at 21:30
  • 4
    I'm confused; I thought typical Eastern European pronunciation was all mil'eil. I didn't realize this had anything to do with Chasidic Rebbes. Nor did I realize that one could label the typical pronunciation of millions of Eastern European Jews a "mistake". Can you clarify in the question? – Curiouser Aug 15 '12 at 21:51
  • Ditto @Curiouser. I think this is a very poor question. The Rebbes pronounce Hebrew in accordance with their tradition. (This coming from me!) – Seth J Aug 15 '12 at 21:58
  • @SethJ , Curiouser: Do they lein that way? – Double AA Aug 15 '12 at 22:04
  • 3
    @Curiouser, European Jews (especially, Eastern European) tend to pronounce more words as mil'eil even when they should not be. However, this is not because their masora is that these words are in actuality mil'eil, but rather because it is more comfortable for those who speak a language in which that is the norm. Therefore, many will use the improper mil'eil pronunciation in informal speech, or when their pronunciation doesn't matter even though they know it is wrong. When it does matter, like saying prayers or b'rachos, then they will pronounce the words correctly. [cont] – jake Aug 15 '12 at 22:05
  • 5
    [cont] However, many people who are unfamiliar with grammar will not differentiate and simply use the more comfortable pronunciation for all matters. This does not constitute a tradition to do so. It is still wrong, and most people of European ancestry today, so long as they are at least slightly familiar with grammar, and since the siddurim are so helpful in this regard, will pronounce words correctly when it matters. In my experience it seems to be only the Chassic Rebbes, and hence their chassidim also, who pronounce incorrectly even when it does matter! (Ping @SethJ) – jake Aug 15 '12 at 22:05
  • @jake, your last two points are good. Sorry, I was a little bit harsh. Still, I think that they do not consider it critical with few exceptions, and so they may not care. I mean, what about Parashath Zachor? What about Megillath Esther? (I don't know what they do then, btw.) And I think it still constitutes (in their minds, at least) a tradition. – Seth J Aug 15 '12 at 22:08
  • 1
    @SethJ, That would seem to validate option #2 in the question. They know that they are doing it wrong, but do it intentionally so because, as you suggest, they consider it a tradition to do so. If you can reasonably explain that concept or -even better- provide a source, it would constitute an answer. – jake Aug 15 '12 at 22:14
  • jake: @SethJ also suggested that they might be doing it intentionally because they don't think proper pronunciation is important. Why that would be would require a good source IMO, especially for cases where it changes the meaning. – Double AA Aug 15 '12 at 22:19
  • 1
    See http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/branches-of-chassidic-menorah-2/02.htm for a writeup of the chassidic response to the haskallah movement, in particular their focus on grammar. "When - in the year 5536 [1776] - news arrived about the publication of Mendelssohn's translation, the elder disciples of Moreinu the Baal Shem Tov and the disciples of the Maggid voiced their opposition to the study of this translation and its commentary. As a precaution [against this study], they also opposed the study of Hebrew grammar. " ... – Menachem Aug 15 '12 at 22:45
  • ... I hear that the mispronunciation of vowels by chassidic groups was also in response to the maskilim's focus on the hebrew language and grammar. (I think this was discussed somewhere on this site already) – Menachem Aug 15 '12 at 22:48
  • See the first story in http://www.lmaanyishmeu.com/pdf/129%20-%20Acquiring%20Seforim.pdf, which finishes off "Seeing this, the Tzemach Tzedek explained that although generally chassidim are not particular about following the exact rules of dikduk while davening, the words of Shema and Kerias HaTorah must be pronounced precisely..." – Menachem Aug 15 '12 at 22:53
  • 1
    @Menachem, Interesting. I somewhat suspected an answer like that. Does this mean that the chassidim don't study grammar and therefore don't know how to pronounce the words correctly (even with the ready availability of such knowledge), or that they do know, but purposely pronounce things wrong to show that the study is unimportant to them? ("To spite the maskilim", one might say.) – jake Aug 15 '12 at 22:54
  • @Menachem, I browsed that first link you sent me ("Branches of the Chassidic Menorah"), but I'm confused. It's unclear what the "elder disciples of Moreinu the Baal Shem Tov" had against Mendelssohn's translation. (It doesn't say anything about the biur, which it implies that Solomon Dubno wrote in its entirety, which he of course did not.) Do you know what was wrong with it in their eyes? – jake Aug 15 '12 at 23:30
  • @jake: "The dissemination of Mendelssohn's translation among the Torah scholars and learned folk served to diminish the sanctity and glory of the Torah. Furthermore, it was a bridge by which dozens of the most capable and outstanding Torah scholars in the batei hamedrash of Vilna, Shklov, Slutzk, Brysk, and Minsk began traveling to Berlin to study the German language, and the fields of medicine, science, and mathematics." -- see how Shimon ben Zamut used grammar as a tool when corrupting Torah students: http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/branches-of-chassidic-menorah-2/04.htm – Menachem Aug 15 '12 at 23:53
  • @jake: I'm not sure about the timeline, but it is possible that the "elder disciples of the BeSH"T" already had misgiving about Mendelssohn before the translation came out, and therefore were suspicious of it – Menachem Aug 15 '12 at 23:56
  • 1
    @Menachem re "I think this was discussed somewhere on this site already": http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/10176/kubutz-and-shuruk-in-polish-hungarian-pronunciation#comment14503_10176 – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 02:00
  • What makes a valid question? Is it the useful answer? Is it the insight gathered? Questions like these cheapen StackExchange. What kind of real research was done on this topic? How many Chassidic Rebbeim were monitored? This is sad. –  Aug 16 '12 at 04:22
  • 3
    @mochinrechavim, What are "questions like these"? I and many others have asked questions on this site based on our observations and things we see done in the community, like all of these questions. [cont] – jake Aug 16 '12 at 05:33
  • 1
    [cont] It doesn't mean that any significant research was done on the topic; just that one would like to know if his observations are accurate, and if so a reason for the occurrence. This question is no different, and thus no less valid. In this case, I can think offhand of about a dozen Chassidic Rebbes whom I've encountered 100% of whom fulfill the criteria mentioned above. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 05:33
  • @mochinrechavim, Also, minimal searching on youtube reveals some more examples of what I'm talking about. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 06:04
  • 2
    @mochinrechavim, while I agree that the OP assumes an extreme definition of what constitutes tradition and seems to arrogantly believe that he alone is allowed to determine what constitutes "correct" Hebrew, I do not agree that it is an illegitimate thing to wonder about. I just don't like the overall tone of the question (or the comments) and find them disrespectful. – Seth J Aug 16 '12 at 15:12
  • @SethJ Is that supposed to be an example of a negative comment? – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 15:16
  • 1
    @SethJ, I am not assuming an extreme definition of anything. I am only asking about grammatical rules that everyone agrees upon. The issue of mil'ra/mil'eil is unequivocal in any and all works of Hebrew grammar and Masoratic commentaries. It didn't even occur to me that Chassidim might have a different "tradition" with regards to how words should be pronounced, so I didn't include it as one of the options. [cont] – jake Aug 16 '12 at 16:17
  • [cont] And regarding the "disrespectful tone" of this question, I tried my best to avoid that. I'm showing my assumption that their is a valid reason for what they are doing either unintentionally or purposely. Unfortunately, just the mere suggestion that Torah greats are ignorant of anything (especially something related to Torah itself) has a tone of disrespect, which is why I thought twice before posting this question. But I'm genuinely curious as to the reason for this phenomenon. If anyone can help try to tone down the seeming disrespect by editing the post, I would be grateful. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 16:18
  • It is certainly relevant for this topic to see this article here as well for comparison. https://www.torahmusings.com/2011/07/mispronouncing-hebrew/ – Shmuel Goldstein Dec 24 '21 at 04:34

5 Answers5

8

On a totally other line,

If you ask many Chasidim today why they don't take care to pronounce words properly; why they don't place the emphasis on the correct syllable; distinguish between a shva na and a nach, dagesh from rafeh, you may hear something that goes as follows: "This is by design. We intentionally de-emphasize dikduk because the Maskilim overemphasized it." You may be happy with this explanation if you chose not to pronounce the words correctly, but, it's plain not true!

Besides the fact that there is no shitah for Am Ha'aratzus, history shows that the issue predates the Haskalah. See Siddur Derrech Siach Hasadeh published in Berlin in 1713 (before the Haskalah) and have a look at the Haskomos. You will find that the Gedolai Yisrael were already bemoaning the situation of how people have strayed from dikduk and are mispronouncing words. This problem wasn't created in response to the Haskalah Movement but predates it. (Locate the full Siddur at the JNUL Digitized repository.) (This is not an endoresement of that siddur, and his approach to dikduk. I am just using documented evidence as proof that this predated haskalah.)

Source: Holy Language Blogspot

Yehuda
  • 6,006
  • 21
  • 51
  • 4
    A very interesting disproof to some of the other theories. But does it answer the question? – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 18:17
  • 3
    @DoubleAA, The title of the blog post in the link is "Chasidim Mispronouncing words is due to lack of proper education". He seems to follow the logic that if the Haskalah reason is untrue as he shows, it must be just ignorance. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 18:19
  • @jake couldnt have put it better myself. This shittah holds that it is pure ignorance! – Yehuda Aug 16 '12 at 18:23
  • This then raises the question of at what point "ignorance" results in a legitimate pronunciation. – yoel Aug 16 '12 at 18:41
  • 2
    This demonstrates nothing. There was common mispronunciation among the general people. Doesn't mean that Chassidim didn't come along and make it deliberate. – Yishai Aug 16 '12 at 19:06
  • I didn't read the Haskamot inside, but @Yishai has a point. How do we know they were complaining about the same customs the Chassidim developed regarding pronunciation. Maybe they were referring to earlier disagreements regarding pronunciation, as brought in this answer: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/10183/603 . Alternatively, perhaps they were complaining about the action of individuals, and not group-wide, systematic pronunciations. -- (of course, reading it inside could clear this up) – Menachem Aug 16 '12 at 22:47
  • @Menachem Reading it is definitely the right way to go, but my Yiddish is too poor. Here it is http://web.nli.org.il/sites/nli/Hebrew/library/Pages/BookReader.aspx?pid=682699 – Double AA Sep 12 '13 at 04:44
  • I had an expert read through all the Haskamot in a copy that he had and there is NO mention of "Gedolai Yisrael bemoaning the situation of how people have strayed from dikduk and are mispronouncing words." He doesn't provide a page number or the exact words used, so this is unreliable information. – Shmuel Goldstein Dec 24 '21 at 04:37
5

אמר ר' אחא: עם הארץ שקורא לאהבה איבה, כגון: ואהבת, ואייבת. אמר הקדוש ברוך הוא: "ודילוגו עלי אהבה".

אמר ר' יששכר: תינוק שקורא לְמשֶׁה מַשֶׁה, לְאַהֲרן אַהֲרַן, לְעֶפְרן עֶפְרַן. אמר הקדוש ברוך הוא: "וליגלוגו עלי אהבה"

And his flag (‘vedigulo’) is, to me, love.

Rabbi Acha said: An ignorant person who calls love (“ahavah”) hate (“eivah”) — for example, “ve’ahavta,” “ve’ayevta” — G-d says, “And his skipping (‘vedilugo’) is, to me, love.”

Rabbi Yisachar said: A baby who calls Mosheh “Masheh,” Aharon “Aharan,” Efron “Efran,” G-d says, “And his slip of the tongue (‘veliglugo’) is, to me, love.”

— Shir HaShirim Rabah 2:4

Therefore, the mispronunciation is okay, if you don't know the correct pronunciation.

Shu"t Chasam Sofer 1:166:

picture

[Israel] don't require an interpreter between them and G-d, because He accepts graciously even gibberish.

b a
  • 24,685
  • 2
  • 54
  • 112
  • 2
    But this is for a ignoramus or small child; how does this limmud zechus help an intelligent adult? – Curiouser Aug 16 '12 at 23:51
  • @Curiouser You can be ignorant about one area as well – b a Aug 16 '12 at 23:51
  • 2
    This explains why they might still be yotzei. But why do this on purpose? (Also, it's not clear to what extent this can be applied: how bad a mistake can it be?) – Double AA Aug 17 '12 at 01:39
  • @DoubleAA The "ignorant person" mentioned in the midrash also shouldn't do it on purpose; he just doesn't know how to pronounce it. Chasidic rabbis are obviously not ignorant, but ones who don't know grammar are comparable to the example. (Also, there is the famous story with R' Levi Yitzchak Berditchev: Someone was praying and pronouncing unclearly, RLYB came to him and blabbered nonsensically and told him that that is what he was doing to G-d. – b a Aug 17 '12 at 01:44
  • An old man came and told RLYB that G-d knows what a person means even when he speaks unclearly, just like a mother knows what her baby wants even when the baby's words aren't making sense. RLYB accepted it.) – b a Aug 17 '12 at 01:44
  • @ba, is there no difference between unavoidably ignorant (baby, ignoramus) and willfully ignorant (an otherwise-learned adult who chose not to learn this)? – Monica Cellio Aug 22 '12 at 12:50
  • @ba I heard those two stories told as one, where the Kedushas Levi was in a shul with only one pair of tefilin, so everybody was rushing through their prayers and then giving the tefilin to the next person. He went to them after and babbled nonsense, and then gave as a moshul that when a child talks nonsense the parent understands, and so too with us and HKB"H. – yoel Aug 22 '12 at 15:04
  • @MonicaCellio המוצא מעם הארץ עליו הראיה. There seems to be no proof to the contrary, as far as I know. – b a Aug 22 '12 at 16:44
  • @yoel I meant to tell the two comments as one story. I only ran out of space and had to make another comment. If you look, I didn't end my parentheses until after the second comment. – b a Aug 22 '12 at 16:44
  • @ba, what I meant was whether you can make yourself a taam through your actions, or if you are a non-taam acting like a taam and maybe that's different. We agree that a true taam is heard even if he doesn't say it right. – Monica Cellio Aug 22 '12 at 16:59
3

The reason why they mispronounce words is because in the times of the Haskalah one of the Shittos of the Maskilim was to be extremely makpid on Dikduk. So whilst countering the Haskalah, they took on to specially ignore grammar to show that the Maskilim were wrong in their general way of life.

Yehuda
  • 6,006
  • 21
  • 51
  • 7
    Sourcing this historical fact (as well as providing Halachik justification for their doing so) would greatly improve the value of this answer. – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 14:44
  • 1
    "To show that the maskilim were wrong". Wrong about what? About being makpid on grammar? Surely that's not wrong. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 16:26
  • @jake wrong with thier general Shittos, and so they wanted to make a seperation between them even on a subject like Dikduk! – Yehuda Aug 16 '12 at 16:56
  • @DoubleAA trying to, for your bracketed request I believe Reb Moshe Feinstein says that any pronounciation is good as long as a large enough sector of people speak it, i think that this would fit in. – Yehuda Aug 16 '12 at 16:57
  • @Yehuda, Fair enough. But an answer is also needed to my comment to Menachem above. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 17:02
  • @jake oh, didnt see that. Its definitely on purpose, without a doubt. I was taught that the earlier Chassidishe Gedolim set it up that way. Still looking for a source thought! – Yehuda Aug 16 '12 at 17:05
  • @Yehuda That teshuva of rav moshe (regarding chalitza I believe) is taken by many to include only naturally developed changes not intentional ones, thereby excluding Modern Israeli Hebrew and apparently also Modern Chasidishe Hebrew from Leshon HaKodesh. – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 17:52
  • @DoubleAA i didnt know that, where did you get that from? – Yehuda Aug 16 '12 at 18:08
  • 4
    @Yehuda Try listening to the shiurim here http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/224/759. (Also, did you just ask me for a source??? :-) ) – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 18:15
  • @DoubleAA ha ha, makes a change, huh? :-) +1 – Yehuda Aug 16 '12 at 18:24
  • 1
    I've heard that reason before, but I'm not sure if it is historically accurate or merely an apocryphal post-facto justification. At any rate, it does not seem like a legitimate reason to violate halachos requiring proper pronunciation, especially when e.g. a change to mil'eil changes the meaning. ping @DoubleAA – Fred Jan 28 '13 at 22:05
  • I heard this reason but I don't understand it. The Chassidim changed pronunciation in an exact way (so say, Komatz is pronounced ooh while Shuruk is pronounced Eeh). One can still have correct dikduk with their pronunciation (similar to the fact that one can speak a proper British English with an American accent). – ertert3terte Jan 28 '13 at 23:39
  • @ShmuelBrin And what is the difference between a Chirik and a Shuruk? – Yehuda Jan 29 '13 at 07:03
3

Stressing of syllables in Hebrew in the way determined by the Tiberian Ba'aley HaMesorah and indicated by the ta'amim (trop) as printed in Bibles is a legitimate issue for halakhic concern when it comes to keriat hatorah and keriat shema. But the obligation to pray is one that may be fulfilled in any language: couldn't you be open to accepting the Ashkenazi tradition of Hebrew as as a medium of communication / language with its own legitimacy?

Grammatical "correction" of davvenning is a perennial issue. In every generation there are people that discover that things are out-of-line with the dikduk of biblical hebrew and introduce "improvements" in the text of the prayers. These tend to erase living features of the the language. For example, at one time the suffix indicating a singular masculine possessive or direct object was 'akh' throughout Ashkenazi siddurim, e.g., 'Na'aritzakh ve-Nakdishakh' in Kedushah. Someone noticed that in Biblical Hebrew this form is reserved for females and so corrected everything to, e.g., 'na'aritzkha ve-nakdishkha'. Hebrew is not just Biblical Hebrew; there were later, living developments, which were reflected in the text of the prayers.

By the way, whether spoken Hebrew in the time of the Mishnah was accented mainly mille'eil or millera' is, I think, an open question among academic linguists of the language.

paquda
  • 4,901
  • 20
  • 32
  • "Couldn't you be open to accepting the Ashkenazi tradition of Hebrew as as a medium of communication / language with its own legitimacy?" Absolutely. But that is something that needs a source; the fact that the Chassidic "version" of Hebrew claims to be a different language, no better or worse than -say- Italian when it comes to prayers. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 17:29
  • 3
    I'm claiming it has the same legitimacy as Mishnaic Hebrew: the text of the Mishnah is not wrong for being different from Biblical Hebrew--it's just a later, living development. – paquda Aug 16 '12 at 17:30
  • 2
    That is fine. All I'm saying is that that needs a source. Do the Chassidic siddurim mark the words differently than others, with more words as mil'eil? I have not seen such a thing. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 17:33
  • Also, re your example of "improvements" introduced into the prayer, see here. Perhaps you might be able to offer an answer there. – jake Aug 16 '12 at 17:34
  • 1
    The source would be the experience of hearing one's parents and teachers of the generation preceding your own learn and pray. I don't think that kind of 'source' is inferior to one that consists of something printed in a book. The inclusion of 'metagim' in siddurim to mark accented syllables (which I would guess is a very recent innovation) is something that got done because whoever printed the siddur decided to do it...I don't think the fact of something's being printed brings with it more legitimacy than something that comes out of living, oral tradition and practice. – paquda Aug 16 '12 at 17:44
  • 2
    Just to be clear, this argument allows for Chassidishe Hebrew to be Leshon HaKodesh just as much as Modern Israeli Hebrew. – Double AA Aug 16 '12 at 17:55
  • Ok, I'll accept that argument for the validity of the pronunciation. Any ideas as to how it happened though? Do you also think it was related to the Haskala movement? – jake Aug 16 '12 at 17:58
  • 1
    I think aspects, such as accenting words mille'el, might reflect the living pronunciation of Hebrew and Aramaic vocabulary the original Jewish migrants to Europe brought with them from the Middle East. Other aspects would be the results of the kind of shifts that are continually occurring in all languages, e.g., the way Australian pronunciation of the vowel 'long a' has come to sound like American English 'long i'. – paquda Aug 16 '12 at 18:28
  • paquda, Keriat Shema can also be said in any language. – Double AA Aug 17 '12 at 14:18
  • Thanks for the correction. I guess I should have said that with keriat shema, there is directive to be 'medakdek' in the pronunciation of the letters (Rambam Hilkhot Keriat Shema, perek bet). I think there is a contrast between keriat shema and tefillah in that regard. – paquda Aug 23 '12 at 12:55
  • “Na’aritzakh” is Mishnaic Hebrew, not female, for your information. Moreover, I’m 99.99% sure that Mishnaic Hebrew was mostly mil’le’ra like Biblical Hebrew. – SabbathEngineer May 13 '23 at 20:39
-2

There are different opinions concerning some of the pronunciations etc.

Chassidic Rebbes at times will say things differently on purpose, since every word of Tfilah (or Brachos etc.) has an affect on the upper worlds, therefore by saying the words in different ways they affect these worlds in the way they see fit.

pzkd
  • 565
  • 2
  • 8
  • how do you know this – Double AA Mar 03 '15 at 16:11
  • That is halachically unacceptable. The tefillos were formulated by the Anshei Knesses Hagedollah, how can any mere acharon go against this. Although, this does run into the whole problem of chasidim changing minhagim which is a comment for another time – Joshua Pearl Nov 02 '16 at 20:17
  • @JoshuaPearl Perhaps they fixed the right ideas for each blessing, but they did not compose the exact words we use today (according to many Rishonim at least like the Rashba and possibly the Rambam). – Double AA Nov 03 '16 at 22:39