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It says in the Baal HaTanya's Hilchos Talmud Torah that one fulfills his obligation to learn Torah only if he says the words. Moreover, a Chavrusa fulfills his obligation only because Shomeya Keoneh.

Most Poskim do not consider a person listening to a tape as Shomeya Keoneh (and one shouldn't answer Amen to blessings he hears over the phone[1]). So does one fulfill Mitzvas Talmud Torah by listening to a shiur on a tape?

[1]. Even according to those who say that one should answer Amen after a live transmission agree that one doesn't after a recording.

ertert3terte
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    This question may also apply to listening to a shiur over the phone, like Dial-a-Daf. – Shmuel Dec 18 '11 at 06:03
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    I'm sorry, but questions like these completely baffle me. It would appear that simple common sense should provide the obvious answer. By listening to this tape, are you engaging in the study of Torah, participating in the our grand and ancient tradition, and gaining Torah knowledge and growing spiritually? If yes, then it's Talmud Torah, because you are being לומד תורה. If not, because, lets say, you're not paying attention, or the tape is actually "Best of Queen," then it's not. Simple. Common. Sense. – Shmuel Dec 18 '11 at 06:05
  • Unstated assumption in the question: That you're not actively following allowing the text as you listen, since if you were, this wouldn't be a question. – Shmuel Dec 18 '11 at 06:06
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    @ShmuelL not sure if you noticed, but he has a stated premise: "only if he says the words". Listen doesn't = says. – yydl Dec 18 '11 at 06:21
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    @ShmuelL according to http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/1976/732 you would be right according to the Gra (unfortunately he doesn't give the source for the Gra). However, (he mentions this also) that other opinions do not hold like that shita (and as an example, I linked to the Hilchos Talmud Torah of the Shulchan Aruch Harav) where he rules explicitly not like that Shitta. – ertert3terte Dec 18 '11 at 06:34
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    @yydl Ah, true. But that raises the [mind-boggling] question of whether reading the gemara\chumash silently counts as Talmud Torah. (Mind-boggling because - see my rant above.) – Shmuel Dec 18 '11 at 06:34
  • @ShmuelBrill I looked in the link. My rant still stands; only now it's directed at those who are far more learned than I am. Bit of chutzpah on my part, I know. But I feel that halacha should make sense, and this one doesn't. – Shmuel Dec 18 '11 at 06:47
  • I think the machlokes between the Gra and Baal haTanya is whether birchas haTorah is required, not whether it counts as Torah in any sense. How could it not count as Torah if one is actually learning? – Ariel K Feb 03 '12 at 14:57
  • Practically, it may often be a good idea to say the words, but that's mainly to remember it better. The gemara in berachos (?) criticizes those don't say the words aloud because they'll forget it , but I think it implies that there's still talmud torah. – Ariel K Feb 03 '12 at 15:00
  • Are you only asking according the Shulhan Arukh Harav's opinion, or in general? Consider clarifying. Various answer do not indicate that this is only according to the ShAH, so it is too late to limit it to the ShAH, but clarifying would still improve the question. – mevaqesh Jun 05 '17 at 13:18
  • I was asking about those who disagree, such as most Rishonim. I suspect that not all the answers are based on ageing with the ShAH – mevaqesh Jun 06 '17 at 01:54
  • I am just trying to understand whether the question is only according to his view. The accepted answer, for example, gives no indication that it is following his view. Nor does the next top voted answer. – mevaqesh Jun 06 '17 at 03:41
  • "Most Poskim do not consider a person listening to a tape as Shomeya Keoneh" Source? "and one shouldn't answer Amen to blessings he hears over the phone" does not seem to be a lack of application of shomea k'one. One can say amen to a berakha he did not make. – mevaqesh Jun 06 '17 at 16:48
  • I don't understand what does any of this have to with shomea k'oneh? Who are the "most poskim you are referring to? – mevaqesh Jun 06 '17 at 17:51
  • Please also note in the post, explicitly that you are accepting sources that give no indication of agreeing with the ShAH... – mevaqesh Jun 06 '17 at 17:51
  • Remember to include relevant info in posts. Not comments. – mevaqesh Jun 06 '17 at 18:52

5 Answers5

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I asked this question once when I wanted to learn a Masechta for the purpose of making a Siyum. I learned it on mp3 and made a Siyum with the approval of a prominent Rav who ran a Kiruv program for which I volunteered in DC.

Seth J
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    +1. Do you think you could share his name? – msh210 Dec 16 '11 at 19:40
  • I actually need to edit this answer. I'm embarrassed to admit that I was just hit with a flashback of memory that inexplicably eluded me earlier. Sorry for any confusion. – Seth J Dec 16 '11 at 19:58
  • It's been edited, in case anyone was wondering. – Seth J Dec 18 '11 at 17:47
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    I asked this question to HaRav Shammai Gross Shlit"a (Bal Machaber ShuT Shevat HaKahasi) a very well known posek in Eretz Yisrael. He said that a siyum could be made on a mesecta learned by way of listening to a shiur (even recorded.) He said at the end of the day the person did learn the material required for the the siyum. When I posed the question I noted that the person did in fact "learn" and "understand" the mesecta well by way of the shiur. – Yehoshua Dec 02 '12 at 21:26
  • @SethJ was this Rabbi by any chance r Tzvi teitelbaum? – Shoel U'Meishiv Jun 24 '15 at 20:29
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Based on the Sefer HaBeracha WeHilchoteah (58:15) it counts as Miswat Talmud Torah.

Hacham Gabriel
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R Braun (from the Crown Heights Beis Din) says that one does not fulfill the obligation to learn torah by listening to tapes.

ertert3terte
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Shulchan Aruch HaRav Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:12 says in part:

וכל אדם צריך ליזהר להוציא בשפתיו ולהשמיע לאזניו כל מה שלומד בין במקרא משנה ותלמוד אלא אם כן בשעת עיון להבין דבר מתוך דבר וכל מה שלומד בהרהור לבד ואפשר לו להוציא בשפתיו ואינו מוציא אינו יוצא בלימוד זה ידי חובת מצות ולמדתם אותם

And every person has to be careful to say the words with his lips and hear them with his ears in all that he learns whether Mikra, Mishna or Talmud, except at a time of thinking to understand the underlying concepts. Everything that he learns with thinking alone and he was able to say them with his lips but fails to doesn't fulfill with this learning the obligation of the Mitzvah of "And you shall learn them ..."

The author of the footnote points to the Tzemach Tzedek in אור התורה why says the distinction is that "it is impossible to talk." In other words, if learning cannot be accomplished through speaking, as opposed to choosing to remain silent, then it is still learning.

That would seem to apply to Torah tapes.

Note that according to the Tafnas Paneiach quoted here there are two distinct parts of the Mitzvah - one is to know Torah, the other is to learn it. It is only the latter that may have the requirement of saying the words, but the former is sufficient to make a Siyum, so that someone can make a siyum on learning from Torah Tapes is not dispositive of the question of if it is Talmud Torah.

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Yishai
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I don't know wether or not you fulfill your obligation of Talmud Torah but rest assure that in Shemayim you will get great rewards for doing the 'mitzvah' of learning.

It may not be an actual mitzvah, fulfillment of the commandment, as we know it, but it is a mitzvah in the sense that Hakadosh Baruch Hu is proud of you for doing it and that He rewards you for it. (See link in above answer by Shmuel Brin on the word 'says'. The video in the link says it is still a very special thing meaning not actual commandment, but still get Schar)

In Mishnah Avos it talks about 'Schar Halichah' - 'the reward of going', or more specifically, the reward of trying.

Moshe Goldberg
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